What is Leo's main shtick really about? Psychonautics vs. Spirituality

[The Mystical Man]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@The Mystical Man You are understanding abstraction mental concepts. Actually abstraction is a metaphysical aspect of consciousness. Before a chair can exist physically, it exists as an abstraction metaphyaically.

That's basically the law of attraction, isn't it? Wallace D. Wattles taught that: 

"There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe. A thought, in this substance, produces the thing that is imaged by the thought. Man can form things in his thought, and, by impressing his thought upon formless substance, can cause the thing he thinks about to be created."

[Leo Gura]

@The Mystical Man I don't like calling it LoA. That comes with a lot of New Age baggage.

But yeah, reality is a Mind.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Leo Gura

[The Mystical Man]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

To put it another way, before the Big Bang everything existed as pure abstraction. The Big Bang was a collapse of this Abstraction, resulting in chairs and cats.

I think what you call pure abstraction is what I like to call pure potentiality. That's how I experienced God: as an infinite field of pure potentiality.

Edited October 3, 2022 by The Mystical Man

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, The Mystical Man said:

I think what you call pure abstraction is what I like to call pure potentiality. That's how I experienced God: as an infinite field of pure potentiality.

Yes

[Hello from Russia]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes

Why do you prefer to call it God? Rather than some more abstract things such as potentiality or infinity

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Hello from Russia said:

Why do you prefer to call it God? Rather than some more abstract things such as potentiality or infinity

I don't prefer it. God is what you are. God is Infinity.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Hello from Russia said:

Why do you prefer to call it God? Rather than some more abstract things such as potentiality or infinity

It's the perfect name.

[r0ckyreed]

The Force or Tao seems like a better name than God.  God has too many images and baggage associated with it, whereas The Force is already naturally mysterious and abstract.  God is portrayed as a personal, powerful king.  The Force is portrayed as  impersonal, mystical energy within all things.  The Force is a better pointer to Infinity.  The Force is Infinity.  

Edited October 3, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

The Force seems like a better name than God. 

No ?

[Hello from Russia]

If we ll be saying tao, everyone will be thinking we are some crazy daoists or whatever

Here is a branding problem

[The Mystical Man]

1 hour ago, r0ckyreed said:

The Force or Tao seems like a better name than God.  God has too many images and baggage associated with it, whereas The Force is already naturally mysterious and abstract.  God is portrayed as a personal, powerful king.  The Force is portrayed as  impersonal, mystical energy within all things.  The Force is a better pointer to Infinity.  The Force is Infinity.  

The Force™ is a trademark of Lucasfilm. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by The Mystical Man

[Asayake]

4 hours ago, The Mystical Man said:

The Force™ is a trademark of Lucasfilm. 

Laughed irl.

[Nemra]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The human mind is not abstract enough to grok God.

But yet you grokked it.

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Leo Gura on a conceptual level light analogy is very good. I compare levels of consciousness to the stuff in the universe. From smallest parts of energy through larger molecules, matter, so called bio matter, plants, animals, humans, planetary consciousness,  star systems consciousness, galaxy consciousness and so on. Like, for example, archangel level of consciousness may be represented as a galactic consciousness. Then we find a place for some dark counterbalance - massive, supermassive black holes that may represent luciferic and arymanic states of consciousness, where relatively tiny drop of ego is enough for such a star to collapse. This spinning dance of light and darkness in the centers of most of galaxies is truly mystical. What is the most mind blowing, that even the most powerful supernova, the brightest galaxy in our sky, the most massive blackhole,  they are all really a tiny speck of dust floating in infinity? Such a childish imaginary in my mind?

[evgn]

@Leo Gura i have a question towards you, so i will be glad if you respond, its not an attach but genuine question from a guy who is not awake.

I've been hearing you from time to time, that you say that majority of the gurus out there are not fully awake, Tolle, Spira, Mooji etc.

So first of all how you gonna say who is fully awake? Isn't that an ego game, who is more awake than whom? And how are  going to measure when you are fully awake. What if you thing that you are fully awake but you are actually not fully awake? 

Second, do you thing that the only way to be fully awake is through psychedelics? Fom what are you sayng i got the idea that maybe there are few people in the world who are truly awake and all the mainstream gurus are just delusional about their level of awakness.

[Batman]

There is no shtick. In psychedelic awakening you are forced to awaken because the substance hinders the mind or opens the senses in a way that disrupts the mind. Because of the psychedelic ability to affect the mind profoundly and rapidly, the awakening is usually deep and intense, usually accompanied by crazy emotional/energetic release. 

The problem with psychedelic awakenings is many fold. One, it is only temporary, due to the effect of the substance on the mind. When mind goes back online, consciousness tends to fall back into identification with it. This way, even though it was clear in the trip that no solid or real identity exist anywhere in consciousness, the dream of being a separate self in a world with other objects continues. Second, if the conditions of the trip weren't adequate to fit the tripper (set, settings, dose), the psychedelic induced awakening can be too much for the mind or the body. The tripper might find himself confused, in horror, or just unable to grasp what has happened to him. The trip might even damage the "process" of awakening or transformation. Three, there might be an attachment to psychedelic awakenings, which may cause the practitioner to seek more psychedelic awakenings rather than the recognition of the identity mechanisms that causes seeking and repeated behavior. 

Psychedelic awakenings should be regarded and considered as serious science of the mind, for all that it implies. This is not to say that psychedelic awakenings are not conducive to enlightenment or transformation. They are probably the best way to divert the regular seeking mind from seeking material objectives to a spiritual "journey", and show us that things are not as solid or identity based as we think. They can also be very useful under the proper conditions to elicit insights on the mind, emotion, body, flow, connection with others, and much more. And they are freaking amazingly powerful just to explore Consciousness.

But when it comes to a fixed realization, shattering the illusion of identities or separation, a fixed shift in what consciousness take itself to be, they fall short. This is where spiritual practice comes in, a thorn to take out another thorn. Of course, the same egoic identity traps that hide in seeking psychedelic states/awakenings also lies in spiritual practice, if the identification process latches also to it. 

So all and all, psychedelics are amazing, and in fact I see them as very direct and intense gurus for initiating the "path". But going back again and again to visit them is no different than going back to an ashram to visit the guru. It is ok if you just want to have fun with your guru, enjoy his company and sit with him. But if you are going back and back again expecting him to wake you up, it is just feeding the seeking mind. People can attend satsang or even meditate for years and not wake up, because they are just satisfying the mind. So it is important to see if this comes from a psychological fixation on some activity or just innocence, honest, play, curiosity, love. It is a matter of clearly seeing what is the motive for what we are doing.

 

[r0ckyreed]

11 hours ago, The Mystical Man said:

The Force™ is a trademark of Lucasfilm. 

Lucasfilm is a trademark of The Force!  

The Force is not an original idea from George Lucas.  He doesn't own The Force, it owns him.  Look at Aztec Philosophy, Buddhism, Taoism, etc.  The Force is the most effective pointer because when you think of The Force, it is Infinite, Supreme Balance and Balance is nothing other than Absolute Perfection, and that is what Leo seems to suggest by calling It God.

Edited October 3, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[axiom]

46 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Lucasfilm is a trademark of The Force!  

The Force is not an original idea from George Lucas.  He doesn't own The Force, it owns him.  Look at Aztec Philosophy, Buddhism, Taoism, etc.  The Force is the most effective pointer because when you think of The Force, it is Infinite, Supreme Balance and Balance is nothing other than Absolute Perfection, and that is what Leo seems to suggest by calling It God.

It’s just a word. Coca Cola is a pretty good pointer too.

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, evgn said:

I've been hearing you from time to time, that you say that majority of the gurus out there are not fully awake, Tolle, Spira, Mooji etc.

So first of all how you gonna say who is fully awake?

By becoming more conscious than them.

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Isn't that an ego game, who is more awake than whom?

No, it's simply a function of one's state of consciousness. Don't take it personally.

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And how are going to measure when you are fully awake.

There is no measuring it, but the deeper you awaken the more obvious it becomes that most others haven't reached your level.

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What if you think that you are fully awake but you are actually not fully awake?

That's a serious problem. The only solution is to stay humble and keep exploring consciousness. You never know when you might hit a deeper level.

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Second, do you think that the only way to be fully awake is through psychedelics?

It's probably not the only way, but it's the most reliable way for people without special genetics to reach crazy high levels of consciousness.

If a better way is found, I am open to it. But I haven't seen anything come close to what psychedelics allow. Especially if you're not a professional monk.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Leo Gura

[axiom]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It's probably not the only way, but it's the most reliable way for people without special genetics to reach crazy high levels of consciousness.

Nurture probably also plays some role. 

I think it might also be beneficial, in certain circumstances, to have experienced extreme suffering from a very young age (i.e. 5 years old), and for this to have extended all the way through the formative years (up to young adulthood) with absolutely no one to turn to.

If you’ve spent decades deeply contemplating “why?” and moreover “why me?”, and the abuse was severe enough to have made suicidal ideation a mainstay of your existence, then the only places you can finally arrive at are:

(1) Lifelong depression or other mental illness;

(2) Suicide;

(3) Total forgiveness and deep understanding.

It seems likely that the massive neurological rewiring involved in reaching (3) above could be a significant advantage. This may be a pretty rare set up too though.

Edited October 3, 2022 by axiom