What is Leo's main shtick really about? Psychonautics vs. Spirituality

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Swarnim said:

I am talking about focus and approach as well. Higher states = Higher Apex and More growth = higher baseline. 

Then I don't see how you added anything new other than renaming each concept

[The Mystical Man]

On 9/28/2022 at 5:30 AM, Leo Gura said:

Surely you must understand that God itself cannot have a guru.

[caspex]

35 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Then I don't see how you added anything new other than renaming each concept

It reconciles what I believe Leo is saying vs. what your saying. That is the these categories aren't different at all vs. they are and are helpful to distinguish.

In my worm analogy it becomes clear that both of what Leo said in his first replies and you said(in your original post) are both correct.

Also I believe renaming it to 'Apex vs. Baseline' is much more clear cut to what I believe you are trying to portray. As 'State Vs. Growth' can be easily misunderstood. For example one might argue that attaining of new states, as a Psychonaut would aim for, is just growth of that individual. While aiming for growth in baseline, as in spirituality, is just working towards sustainment of ever higher states. 'Attain vs. Sustain' is also a nice one. 

[Consilience]

There does seem to be a growth of wisdom associated with traversing different states. Similar to how traveling by itself can nurture the growth of wisdom. 

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Swarnim said:

It reconciles what I believe Leo is saying vs. what your saying. That is the these categories aren't different at all vs. they are and are helpful to distinguish.

The category of "focusing on states over growth" is distinct from "focusing on growth over states". In one sense, the categories describe a difference in degrees, so of course there is overlap, and of course both psychedelics and meditation impact both states and growth. What I'm saying is they're useful categories. Why are they useful? Because Leo says that ALL the people in the other category are "not awake", and it's because ALL the people have a different focus than him. If all people fit into one place because they're all doing the same thing, then that is a good justification for placing them in a category.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Star said:

Thanks for responding I appreciate it.... but we see life completely differently.... I'm not interested in money  our business at all.

I wasn't talking about money. Or even business. I was talking about creating/manifesting.

3 hours ago, Consilience said:

There does seem to be a growth of wisdom associated with traversing different states. Similar to how traveling by itself can nurture the growth of wisdom. 

The only way God can know itself is by experiencing all of itself.

God cannot know that rape is bad unless God experiences rape. Literally! It is not possible to understand rape without being raped.

Because of this God must experience every possible experience, every possible perspective, every possible state. This is where God's omniscience and intelligence comes from: direct personal experience. So by belittling experience and states, as Buddhists tend to do, you cut yourself off from God.

The reason there is growth from states and experiences is because that's all there is to consciousness. You literally cannot comprehend what consciousness is without experiencing the full gamut of it. None of your ideas about it are enough.

Imagine the wisdom you would have if you experienced every possible thing that could ever be experienced. That would literally make you God.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Leo Gura

[LSD-Rumi]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Imagine the wisdom you would have if you experienced every possible thing that could ever be experienced. That would literally make you God.

Will you have a memory of everything that happened, like all the little details? or Will it be like just a grandiose, big picture understanding?

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Will you have a memory of everything that happened, like all the little details? or Will it be like just a grandiose, big picture understanding?

You can have many degrees of it, all the way up to the point of literally existing as all experiences simultaneously.

But infinite intelligence is baked into the universe even if you are not directly conscious of its source. The intelligence is there because it stems from reality being All-Experiencing.

Even a memory of rape is not the same thing as actually being raped right now. So something is lost. Your memories make you wise, but not as wise as you would be if you were freshly experiencing all the events of your life.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

to the point of literally existing as all experiences simultaneously.

That is god, the infinity. There is no time, all is happening now. but by means of a smart trick, like the blinkers of donkeys, we can only see our experience. our human mind is a limiter that limits infinity to one thing. psychedelics disable the limiter for a while, and infinity manifests

[Asayake]

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Your memories make you wise, but not as wise as you would be if you were freshly experiencing all the events of your life.

I think this is very interesting. I have experienced how on multiple occasions in my own life my own development was accelerated shortly after experiencing an intense event such as having a conflict with my parents and crying, or during some death anxiety that surfaced during my recent problems with chest pain. Thinking back on traumatic events years later can be insightful but the fresher the experience is, the easier it seems to be to access insight that translates into life transformation, wether that is by making progress in the material realm or by changing the outlook on life itself, or both.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Asayake

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Asayake said:

I think this is very interesting. I have experienced how on multiple occasions in my own life my own development was accelerated shortly after experiencing an intense event such as having a conflict with my parents and crying, or during some death anxiety that surfaced during my recent problems with chest pain. Thinking back on traumatic events years later can be insightful but the fresher the experience is, the easier it seems to be to access insight that translates into life transformation, wether that is by making progress in the material realm or by changing the outlook on life itself, or both.

Because the mind needs grist for the mill.

[Asayake]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Because the mind needs grist for the mill.

I will keep this in mind!

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Swarnim said:

Also I believe renaming it to 'Apex vs. Baseline' is much more clear cut to what I believe you are trying to portray. As 'State Vs. Growth' can be easily misunderstood.

I frankly think that you would have to try very hard to misunderstand it if you actually take the time to read everything from start to finish. I almost decided not to write it because it felt almost too obvious to even mention.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Ragib Ashraf said:

@Leo Gura In your descriptions of experiencing total omniscience, it doesn’t seem you were necessarily conscious of being a paper clip or an octopus. What’s going on there? 

Well, if you become conscious enough you don't need to literally experience everything in detail because you grasp it all as pure abstraction.

At the highest levels of consciousness God is Pure Abstraction.

People really don't understand how central abstraction is to all this. The human mind is not abstract enough to grok God.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Leo Gura

[The Mystical Man]

On 10/2/2022 at 11:43 PM, Leo Gura said:

At the highest levels of consciousness God is Pure Abstraction.

Surely God must be beyond all abstractions. For it is the human mind that deals in abstractions.

Edited October 4, 2022 by The Mystical Man

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, The Mystical Man said:

Surely God must be beyond all abstractions.

Surely not.

You just don't understand what abstraction is.

[Inliytened1]

13 minutes ago, The Mystical Man said:

Surely God must be beyond all abstractions. The human mind deals in abstractions.

You grasp it all as potential.  It doesn't need to be actualized.

[The Mystical Man]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You just don't understand what abstraction is.

[Leo Gura]

@The Mystical Man You are understanding abstraction mental concepts. Actually abstraction is a metaphysical aspect of consciousness. Before a chair can exist physically, it exists as an abstraction metaphysically.

To put it another way, before the Big Bang everything existed as pure abstraction. The Big Bang was a collapse of this Abstraction, resulting in chairs and cats.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Carl-Richard]

4 minutes ago, The Mystical Man said:

Omg