What is Leo's main shtick really about? Psychonautics vs. Spirituality

[Carl-Richard]

15 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I still need to read and re read his opening post. 

Why am I even responding to you? 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Thought Art]

@Carl-Richard idk. I’ve read it, and I’m rereading it and trying to make sense of you. Please be kind. 
 

You want spirituality to be categorically distinct from psyhconautica? You say that at the end.

 

So, what’s your point? Do you even know?

Because, your saying to me seems to contradict your final point. 
 

They aren’t categorically distinct. Different teachers teaching different spiritual technologies, who carry a lot of overlap. 
 

“Seeking the sacred” isn’t even what I would call spirituality. That’s like a single strain. 
 

Spirituality is a broad term. I will provide what I think is a better definition. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

Oh you want to call what you think is spirituality spirituality that’s cool

When you say something information dense, and when you admit there’s lots of overlap. You don’t need to be a jerk to people trying to understand or disagreeing with you. You are like, borderline gaslighting me this whole time.

This is a nuanced space. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Thought Art

[Devin]

4 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Oh you want to call what you think is spirituality spirituality that’s cool

It's called me0 advaita

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Thought Art said:

So, what’s your point? Do you even know?

If you're having such a hard time understanding what I wrote, here is my point:

When Leo says "I'm the only person in the world who is awake", and that "no other spiritual guru is awake because they haven't taken enough trips of 5-Meo", this is because Leo's idea of awakening is categorically distinct from these gurus' ideas of awakening. When these gurus talk about their idea of awakening, and when Leo calls those gurus "not awake", it's misleading and ambiguous: does he mean that they're not awake according to their own definition, or does he mean that they're not awake according to his definition? You can't know that based on what Leo says in that sentence, let alone that there are multiple definitions of awakening. If you're a newbie, you have to spend hours, days and maybe weeks being confused about it until you finally realize "ah, he is using a different definition", and by then, you've stirred up so much confusion and unnecessary animosity across communities, that you certainly have no right to claim yourself as spiritual. I want to correct that mistake.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[BipolarGrowth]

There is no such thing as spirituality without “altered” states. To be even more clear, there is no human existence without “altered” states. There is nothing virtuous or desirable about the “lower” normal states of consciousness humans tend to inhabit when living in an unexamined way. The whole path of spirituality is a hunt to find what the real “unaltered” state actually is. This is essentially a fusion between the childlike freedom, wonder, and flow that we all experienced to some degree or another with the conditioned, egoic, and responsibility-focused adult life we are all naturally pulled to at some point. 
 

Eventually one finds through the path that experience has always been and always will be somehow the same process on a structural level, but the viewing of what the structure of experience is becomes more and more refined through the repeated exposure to a wide array of apparently different experiential configurations. 

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, BipolarGrowth said:

There is no such thing as spirituality without “altered” states.

Correct.

[Thought Art]

@Carl-Richard I agree. 
 

Well, to your first point. 
 

Historically though all spiritual schools have put down other spiritual schools. Other schools aren’t God Realized. 
 

People need to learn about the different awakenings and attainments and pros and cons of different spiritual technologies. You can only do that by exploring and learning with an open mind. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Thought Art

[axiom]

Hmm. 

Enlightenment is a once and done thing.

“God realisation” (deeper and deeper trips) is an endless journey wherein the ego remains fully intact and is even amplified.

They are quite opposite things. One is a type of scientific exploration. The other is meta.

Enlightenment is not really a state. It is in fact the end of all subjective experience.

[Thought Art]

@axiom hmm, you know that for sure?

[axiom]

@Thought Art I don't know anything. That's the meta bit.

Chasing states of any kind is to be diving ever deeper into the dream.

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

@DocWatts I just think it’s too simplistic . Leo and Martin both talk about broader things in their writings/ talks.

I was initially drawn here by Leo's videos on epistemology and sociology, so I'm aware of that.

My point was more that Carl-Richard's breakdown between psychonautics and spirituality is a useful and clarifying distinction. Simplifications for the purposes of clarification are perfectly fine, so long as it's clear that it's a simplification in context.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

Historically though all spiritual schools have put down other spiritual schools. Other schools aren’t God Realized. 

They all agree that growth > states. Leo doesn't. That is the basis for the two categories.

[Thought Art]

@Carl-Richard Does Leo think that?

 

He seems to have lots of videos on growth… like a lot…

[Carl-Richard]

36 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Carl-Richard Does Leo think that?

 

He seems to have lots of videos on growth… like a lot…

Main. Shtick.

It's about degrees. It's a bigger-than sign for a reason. Please don't let me repeat myself any more times.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[BlessedLion]

Leo called Consilence a jackass and kinda flipped on him for just having a different opinion and making what I would call a totally reasonable case for his point of view. 
 

It’s just not a very loving and non reactive way to respond. 
 

I have sat with enlightened masters who would never talk to their students like this and only show love to them. 
 

Also, Leo’s point is invalid because people like Ralston, Buddha, Christ have attained the highest awakenings solely through contemplation. 
 

Psychedelics are beautiful and powerful tools but reality is the strongest trip of all. You just gotta tap in. 

[Consilience]

@BlessedLion Any reactivity I felt from Leo’s comment is my responsibility. I have no issues and took no offense. Nor did I feel Leo seriously meant anything by it.

Kinda like when a Zen monk whacks someone with the proverbial stick. If the student takes it personally, that’s where their work is.  

Loving teachers don’t always show up in how the ego mind projects. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Consilience

[Thought Art]

@Carl-Richard I low key think your a jerk. I’m not going to engage with you for awhile I think. 
 

You are extremely unpleasant to talk to. 
 

“don’t let me repeat myself” holy high and mighty Carl.

I don’t share your opinion and your not an authority to me. I don’t agree with you on everything. I’m not asking you to tell me spirituality is.

 Seems like, the big picture is his shtick. Which is why he has covered all these different things over the years. The psychedelics is what he found to be most effective in his spiritual pursuits for unlocking and realizing certain facets of God. But, he covers a lot so. For me, I take it all as part of the larger tapestry. 
 

Im not entirely in disagreement with Carl. I can see the difference between different teachers, technologies, opinions, ideologies, paradigms etc

But, speaking to him? Miserable. 
 

jerk>growth

Edited September 29, 2022 by Thought Art

[Carl-Richard]

@Thought Art Sorry for losing patience. I have repeated myself so many times, even after you re-read the topic. I interpreted your engagement as contrarian and nitpicking. I don't feel that you actually don't understand the point I'm making.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

It’s just not a very loving and non reactive way to respond.

I have sat with enlightened masters who would never talk to their students like this and only show love to them.

You're in for a rude awakening when a Japanese Zen master yanks you by the balls for repeatedly saying stupid things.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Leo Gura