What is Leo's main shtick really about? Psychonautics vs. Spirituality

[Michal__]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The ideal would be to meditate for 40 years and also do psychedelics systematically, don't you think? it is difficult to understand the rejection of psychedelics by almost all teachers. and much more without having tried them

No matter how awake some of the classic teachers may be (I have no idea honestly) the classic rejection of psychadelics is just stage blue programming, nothing deeper.

[Leo Gura]

40 years of meditation will certainly get you somewhere. But not where you ultimately want to be if what you seek is God.

I don't have a problem with anyone meditating. I just teach something deeper which meditation will not get you.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Jodistrict]

36 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@Consilience just listen to people who meditate for 40 years and compare. But not shinzen young he is a rare Master and also used psychedelics

I studied with Shinzen many years ago and heard the story of his first enlightenment.  He was accepted into the monestary of a Vajrayana Japanese Buddhist sect.  He had to meditate by himself for six months day and night.  Every morning he had to pour ice cold water over his body.  This was in winter, and these place have no heat.  The way you make real progress in meditation is by putting in the effort.  It is effort.  Not genetics.  Doing a half ass meditation for 40 years gets you the results you should expect.  It is just going through the motions and make pretend.  

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

I studied with Shinzen many years ago and heard the story of his first enlightenment.  He was accepted into the monestary of a Vajrayana Japanese Buddhist sect.  He had to meditate by himself for six months day and night.  Every morning he had to pour ice cold water over his body.  This was in winter, and these place have no heat.  The way you make real progress in meditation is by putting in the effort.  It is effort.  Not genetics.  Doing a half ass meditation for 40 years gets you the results you should expect.  It is just going through the motions and make pretend.  

Shinzen Young does not know what God is.

If you okay with that, follow in his footsteps.

You guys are playing with fire here. So watch out. You will easily trick yourself and lose 40 years of your life if you aren't smart.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Jodistrict]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Shinzen Young does not know what God is.

He does and is not afraid of the word "God".  But his life purpose is to make meditation something rigorous that is accepted by Science, so I believe he downplays talk of God for that reason.

[Thought Art]

It’s funny 

 

I’ve read books now on Taoist and Buddhist Qigong. 
 

Energetic Inner cultivation/ cultivation of mind is a thing. Apparently the sitting meditation formed because of the difficulties of communicating The moving practices. So, even though sitting can get you far off you don’t also do moving Qigong you are vastly limited. Mix sex, psychedelics, herbs into that and your on a whole other level.

 

All these things very contested their entire history. Get used to it.

[OBEler]

@Jodistrict why this ultra hardcore work. Almost no human can endure that by his own will even for a week.

But plugging 5 meo is something everyone can do and you can get even deeper with this. 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

He does and is not afraid of the word "God".  But his life purpose is to make meditation something rigorous that is accepted by Science, so I believe he downplays talk of God for that reason.

Lots of folks use the word. Doesn't mean they have a clue. The words are not what I look at.

Again, you guys take me for some kind of fool.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

Meditate and don’t us AI for art!!! 

[Arthogaan]

At the beginning of my journey I meditated pretty much every day for some years and got pretty solid insights of no self, even of Absolute and "nothing ever happened" but still all of this was unconsciously with the vibe of scepticism, materialism and nihilism.

It was only after my first trips with mushrooms that my mind was cracked open to how magical reality is, how air is made of Loving Nothingness, not just Empty Dull Nothigness that I got from meditating only.

Speaking relatively I think it is silly to assume that something our mind produces is as good as the best chemicals out there out of thousands. It like saying that training your legs to jump as high as possible is as good as a jetpack.

There is this kind of "Naturalness Fallacy" that if some widom or state is aquired by something external like psychedelic then it is somehow less valid.

But external is artificial distinction. All reality is the mind of God and if I were God i would hide the Holy Grail in some fun place (like mushrooms or toad) and not just in my Avatar's mind which would be too easy and boring.

Not acknowledging that psychedelics are extremely helpful and are beyond what meditation is capable of is like saying that you do not need telescopes to explore the night sky because you can just train your eye.

[Consilience]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The ideal would be to meditate for 40 years and also do psychedelics systematically, don't you think? it is difficult to understand the rejection of psychedelics by almost all teachers. and much more without having tried them

I used to agree with this sentiment. Meditation + psychedelics are the way to go. And I think for beginner practitioners I do still generally agree with this stance. But the last handful of trips I've done have pretty noticeably disrupted momentum with meditation. They've created these microscopic fluctuations in the quality of my attention and created what could be described as small yet detectable rips in my energy body, energy just doesn't flow as harmoniously a week post trip compared to what I'm leading into the trip with. Because of all of the retreats I've done, my sensitivity to the energy body and mind are way way way higher than when I first began using psychedelics, which is probably why I'm able to see these disruptions now vs. then.

However, because of the highly deconstructive nature of psychedelic experiences, I still think they are incredibly useful for most beginners and because of the immense power they have for working through healing, emotional blockages and even energy blockages, I still think they are incredibly useful. In fact, I personally think mainstream psychedelic usage will be a necessity for humanity to confront the growing number of existential threats facing the planet. Collectively, we need something more powerful than meditation to snap us out of our delusion. 

That all being said, for advanced meditation practitioners who have experienced God many times, who have faced death many times on psychedelics, the work becomes about rewiring the default state of mind to merge with the absolute nature of God's mind. Meditation does this, particularly when one has the vast understanding from prior psychedelic usage, a kind of energetic vision of where the path leads. But ultimately the rewiring process takes place at supra-subtle levels of mind that simply cannot be accessed via psychedelics due to their overwhelming power and intensity, as well as their transitory quality. The microcosmic changes meditation produces simply are not produced from psychedelics, but these changes are required to transform the meditator's mind into again, the mind of God. 

Because this process of slowly transforming the mind is so delicate, subtle, and demands an extremely advanced attentional clarity, I am not convinced regular psychedelic usage makes sense for advanced practitioners. Occasional usage I think would have benefit. Perhaps once every 4 - 12 months. Psychedelics are also useful litmus tests for how strong one's practice is. If you can't remain clear while reality is crumbling around you, is your practice really that strong? However again, because the process of rewiring the mind from the unconscious to the conscious is so delicate, subtle, and demands an extremely advanced attentional clarity all of which frequent or even infrequent use of psychedelics can disrupt, I am not convinced regular psychedelic usage makes sense for advanced practitioners. This is most likely why teachers are against their usage. 

The consequences of psychedelics on the energy body and ability for the mind to access subtle aspects of itself while in the sober state is not very well understood in the west. All of this being said, I am still a proponent of their use, especially for noobies, especially in the context of healing, and even more so in the context of existential risk. 

[spiritual memes]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

No amount of meditation is God-Realization.

You will meditate every day for 40 years and still not understand that you are God.

I got god realization from 10 minutes of meditation the other day . Didn't last very long tho

[amanen]

I will never understand why people do not just use the most efficient and strongest tools (psychedelics) at their disposal, instead insisting in doing some traditional way, it just seems inefficient. That's not even considering that the tools might get you somewhere where you cant without them, that's assuming they get you to the same place, but in most cases meditation won't get to even near the same places that you would with psychedelics. All meditation does is mostly shut down your mind, I don't see how that can raise your consciousness drastically. Why not just use what is the strongest method? How can you tap into infinite intelligence with meditation?

Edited September 28, 2022 by amanen

[Arthogaan]

2 minutes ago, Consilience said:

That all being said, for advanced meditation practitioners who have experienced God many times, who have faced death many times on psychedelics, the work becomes about rewiring the default state of mind to merge with the absolute nature of God's mind. Meditation does this, particularly when one has the vast understanding from prior psychedelic usage, a kind of energetic vision of where the path leads. But ultimately the rewiring process takes place at supra-subtle levels of mind that simply cannot be accessed via psychedelics due to their overwhelming power and intensity, as well as their transitory quality.

I have to admit that it is very well worded and extremely wise. Hats off to you.

 

But I think it is valid when you are in the business of Perfecting Day to Day Abiding and baseline. And total understanding of reality and consciousness is kinda different business.

[spiritual memes]

1 minute ago, amanen said:

I will never understand why people do not just use the most efficient and strongest tools (psychedelics) at their disposal, instead insisting in doing some traditional way, it just seems inefficient. That's not even considering that the tools might get you somewhere where you cant without them, that's assuming they get you to the same place, but in most cases meditation won't get to even near the same places that you would with psychedelics. All meditation does is mostly shut down your mind, I don't see how that can raise your consciousness drastically. Why not just use what is the strongest method?

Same reason why people stay natty when bodybuilding.

[Arthogaan]

3 minutes ago, spiritual memes said:

Same reason why people stay natty when bodybuilding.

Kinda but not really. 

 

I would be open to use steroids if there would not be strong evidemce of its harmfulness.

And with psychedelics there seems to be more health benefits than dangers.

[Leo Gura]

Waking up from all illusion is NOT natural, it's supernatural

Nature is illusion.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Leo Gura

[axiom]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I will talk about over 60 different psychedelics.

I can't make any promises of which will work on you. Maybe none of them will. You can't know until you try.

That's in the works too.

This should be a coffee table book. Pictures of various substances with trip reports, interspersed with AI image interpretations of God, peppered with a few HD macro photos of vomit.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, axiom said:

This should be a coffee table book. Pictures of various substances with trip reports, interspersed with AI image interpretations of God, peppered with a few HD macro photos of vomit.

With lickable stamps for every facet of God

[Jodistrict]

1 hour ago, OBEler said:

@Jodistrict why this ultra hardcore work. Almost no human can endure that by his own will even for a week.

But plugging 5 meo is something everyone can do and you can get even deeper with this. 

I take Bufo Alvarius on a regular basis, with a guide and by myself.  

A lot of the “deepness” of psychedelics is illusory.  You aren’t really connecting like you think.  It is just stimulating your imagination.  I recently completed my first Plant Diet in the Amazon.  I learned that the Plant Diet is actually a rigorous ascetic discipline.  You purge and cleanse yourself every day (including vomiting for 5 to 6 hours at a time) and only then do you take the master plant Ayahuasca.  If you are worthy, she will share her wisdom with you.  In other words, the Plant Diet is just as rigorous as a real meditation.  You get nothing for free in life.  The magic pill is the real illusion.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Jodistrict