What is Leo's main shtick really about? Psychonautics vs. Spirituality

[julienw]

7 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I read what you wrote just not your mind. Your stance seems a little flakey or unclear. For me, all the teachers and teachings are like tasty fruits on vines and I’m just plucking and sucking 
 

C'mon man. He's being pretty straightforward. I think the question is really just: are psychedelic awakenings merely temporary states (psychonautics) vs. a potential for an affectation of more sustained growth (spirituality). I'm not arguing for either side, just trying to elucidate what I think is being said here. I also believe Carl is trying to delineate Leo's teaching's as a particular category of discussion around spirituality and awakening as compared to other gurus, etc. 

[Vibes]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The course I'm working on will guide you in doing a complete deconstruction of every aspect of your mind, including all of spirituality, and then guide you to realizing every facet of God that I have realized. If you succeed in doing all that you will become the most conscious thing in the universe. And then you will understand why I said all the shit I said.

@Leo Gura Will I need to buy 5-MeO to do the course or any psychedelic like mushrooms will be good enough?

What about the other, less hardcore course, when is it coming out?

[Carl-Richard]

26 minutes ago, julienw said:

are psychedelic awakenings ... a potential for an affectation of more sustained growth (spirituality)?

Well, as I've said, they are definitely a source of growth. If you want to be very precise, that is not really what I'm pointing at. I'm talking about a difference in intention: should you aim towards higher and higher states, or should you aim towards a deeper and more grounded integration of those states?

Edited September 28, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Vibes said:

@Leo Gura Will I need to buy 5-MeO to do the course or any psychedelic like mushrooms will be good enough?

I will talk about over 60 different psychedelics.

I can't make any promises of which will work on you. Maybe none of them will. You can't know until you try.

Quote

What about the other, less hardcore course, when is it coming out?

That's in the works too.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

13 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm seeing way too much unnecessary confusion about many things, particularly words like awakening or enlightenment, and how it relates to things like spirituality or psychedelics. I would like to maybe present some clarity of language. One of the biggest virtues of teaching is clarity of communication, and while something like spirituality is in some sense doomed to fail from the start, the way this problem is being exacerbated by conflating what I believe to be two separate realms is certainly not helping.

What are these two realms? One I will call "spirituality", which is familiar to most people, and the second I will call "psychonautics", which I believe is Leo's "main shtick", but of course is also not a full representation of his work. I'm also not going to criticize or devalue any of these things. I only wish to shine light on the clash of language that is occurring between how Leo chooses to talk about his main shtick and a more collectively established realm of spirituality.

 

Spirituality – "growth > states"

In a nutshell: mainly aiming at changing your default state.

Examples:

• Sadhguru
• Osho
• Rupert Spira
• Adyashanti
• Eckhart Tolle
• Ramana Maharshi

A very general and almost useless definition of spirituality, which I'll borrow from Kenneth Pargament, is "a search for the sacred". How this is usually expressed within various spiritual traditions (from the world religions to the New-Age) is that you're aligning your life with the sacred and integrating it into yourself as a person. More importantly, when it comes to the mystical traditions and their emphasis on the direct experience of the sacred, they're not as concerned with the experiences themselves, as the potential growth you can gain from these experiences, and the eventual goal of merging with the sacred: the concept of a final destination (often called "Enlightenment") is generally preferred over a temporary glimpse (often called "Awakening").

 

Psychonautics – "states > growth"

In a nutshell: mainly aiming at experiencing the highest states possible.

Examples:

• Leo Gura
• Terrence McKenna
• Martin Ball
• Psyched Substance

Psychonautics, on the other hand, "refers both to a methodology for describing and explaining the subjective effects of altered states of consciousness, including those induced by meditation or mind-altering substances, and to a research cabal in which the researcher voluntarily immerses themselves into an altered mental state in order to explore the accompanying experiences." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychonautics

So, the reason I'm characterizing Leo's main shtick as "psychonautics" rather than "spirituality" is because of this emphasis on "having the experiences" vs. "integrating them"; states vs. growth. Also, the reason I think psychonautics is largely distinct from spirituality, is that if a state is not properly integrated and made into a platform for organic growth, then it's either forgotten, or outsourced to the intellect. When given the option between intellect or integration, the former is lesser spiritual than the latter.

So, what is going on when Leo says "none of your gurus are awake", or "this is not God-realization", or "I have awoken to God many times"? Well, he is talking about "temporary experiential states", with a definite start and an end, and they're induced by psychedelics. It's not the same thing as refining your "organic baseline state" through other techniques, like meditation. Therefore, for any of these two parties, spirituality or psychonautics, to dismiss either one as "not awake", is a category error.

Again, I'm not here to pick favorites, and I'm not going to deny the possibility of refining or deepening one's psychedelic trips over time, or the general impact they can have on one's psyche, or the potential benefits for spiritual growth. I'm simply spelling out how these two things are categorically different. If I were Leo, I would try to make my language more accommodating to the more dominant paradigm (which I've called spirituality, and which most of his viewers have connections to). Language does not exist in a vacuum, and psychonautics already has a wide vocabulary to choose from.

   Very nice post.

[OBEler]

@Carl-Richard I disagree with everything you say. 

Meditation is closer to the function of normal consciousness. But psychedelic can be too. Look for microdosing. 

Also the default state can stay a long way after psychedelics too. It will not be the peak of a psychedelic experience 24 hours but the same you can say about Meditation. You are not 24 hours on your peak of a Meditation Session. 

 

I think just for my handful of trips I have higher consciousness than a normal Zen master during a day. Because when I hear them on YouTube I see that they have not so high awareness. And what they talk about is weak compared to what I experienced on psychedelics. The Zen Master had one mystical experience (he called it dying on the seat) after decades of practice. I could reach that in one session of Truffle.

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by OBEler

[Thought Art]

Will reread opening post

[Consilience]

48 minutes ago, OBEler said:

You are not 24 hours on your peak of a Meditation Session. 

With sufficient training you can sustain these states throughout the day.

[Leo Gura]

No amount of meditation is God-Realization.

You will meditate every day for 40 years and still not understand that you are God.

Just trust me on this. You do not comprehend how deep this goes 

Nothing that any Buddhist has ever taught you is God-Realization. It's just human dreams within dreams.

God is an Infinite Dream. And you have no clue what this means yet. Anything you think it means is just another dream. All of Buddhism, is your dream.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Leo Gura

[OBEler]

@Consilience then this is pretty rare like psychedelic. Martin Ball could also be on 5 meo stages during days 24 hours

[Consilience]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You will meditate every day for 40 years and still not understand that you are God.

Just trust me on this. You do not comprehend how deep this goes 

> Has barely done any meditation training 

> Hasnt been on a meditation retreat in years

> Routinely shits on meditation and meditation teachers 

> Has a questionable daily practice

> trust me bro

?

[OBEler]

@Consilience just listen to people who meditate for 40 years and compare. But not shinzen young he is a rare Master and also used psychedelics

Edited September 28, 2022 by OBEler

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Consilience said:

> Has barely done any meditation training 

> Hasnt been on a meditation retreat in years

> Routinely shits on meditation and meditation teachers 

> Has a questionable daily practice

> trust me bro

?

Why do you think I don't practice it?

You think I am stupid?

You think I don't see everything these Buddhists are doing?

I don't practice it because meditation practice is a dream! You don't understand this yet, jackass.

The fucking arrogance in you masquerading as humility is stunning!

Your case is worthy of a whole 3-hour long rant episode. I shall title it:

The Trap Of The Humble Buddhist Who's Full Of Shit And Wouldn't Know God From If It Bit Him In The Ass

Edited September 28, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, OBEler said:

@Carl-Richard I disagree with everything you say. 

Meditation is closer to the function of normal consciousness. But psychedelic can be too. Look for microdosing. 

A microdose is still a very different metabolic signature than your brain at rest.

 

1 hour ago, OBEler said:

It will not be the peak of a psychedelic experience 24 hours but the same you can say about Meditation. You are not 24 hours on your peak of a Meditation Session.

I've had countless spontaneous awakenings which were like meditation awakenings but only eyes open and moving, but I've never even seen slight psychedelic visuals when sober.

 

1 hour ago, OBEler said:

I think just for my handful of trips I have higher consciousness than a normal Zen master during a day. Because when I hear them on YouTube I see that they have not so high awareness. And what they talk about is weak compared to what I experienced on psychedelics. The Zen Master had one mystical experience (he called it dying on the seat) after decades of practice. I could reach that in one session of Truffle.

My sober awakening experiences blew my LSD experiences out of the water. You're assuming things here.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura No names plz 

[Consilience]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You think I don't see everything these Buddhists are doing?

Many are deluded I agree, but not all, and this doesn’t negate the value of the teachings. Just look at your audience. 

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't practice it bcause meditation practice is a dream! You don't understand this yet, jackass.

This is like saying I don’t eat because eating is a dream. Horrible logic. 
 

Anyways yes, meditation is a dream, psychedelics are a dream, and it’s the self interacting with itself, playing with itself endlessly. 
 

[Consilience]

15 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@Consilience just listen to people who meditate for 40 years and compare. But not shinzen young he is a rare Master and also used psychedelics

Ive listened to people who’ve meditated for less and are mind blowing. Stepping into their presence sends me into instant, deep samadhi. Are these kinds of teachers rare? Yes of course.

The training quality and personal intentionality one practices with vary greatly person to person. How deeply one deconstructs varies from person to person as well, which impacts the depth one can achieve with practice.

You’d be wise to drop this “meditates for 40 years and gets nowhere” nonsense. 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Anyways yes, meditation is a dream, psychedelics are a dream, and it’s the self interacting with itself, playing with itself endlessly. 

You don't comprehend this yet.

[Breakingthewall]

18 minutes ago, Consilience said:

You’d be wise to drop this “meditates for 40 years and gets nowhere” nonsense. 

The ideal would be to meditate for 40 years and also do psychedelics systematically, don't you think? it is difficult to understand the rejection of psychedelics by almost all teachers. and much more without having tried them 

it is quite obvious that there is an ego factor like climbing Everest without oxygen. what you want is to get to the top, not to get medals and pats on the back

Edited September 28, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[OBEler]

@Carl-Richard Ok then how many time do you meditate? Maybe you are very rare

Psychedelics have more to offer than visuals. I mean the consciousness, energy state you are in can last for days