Implications of the present moment being all that exists

[Breakingthewall]

On 25/9/2022 at 7:27 PM, amanen said:

because you can walk to it, and then it is in your direct experience

That is the point. "Then". So now there is not room, but later it would be. But time is a construction. Everything is now. Only now is. Now there are all the possible rooms, all the possible everything, for the reason that they are going to exist "after". Now is the infinity, and our pov is simply a limitation. 

[amanen]

38 minutes ago, Matthew85 said:

@amanen How do you explain that I am a conscious awareness having the experience of being a human living in California? I exist and am having experiences outside of my interactions with you. So if this is the case with me, you have to presume it is the case with every other person you interact with. 

It doesn't matter if I say only you are conscious, only I am conscious, or that both of us are conscious. You should just go figure if anything I am saying is true or not for yourself.

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

That is the point. "Then". So now there is not room, but later it would be. But time is a construction. Everything is now. Only now is. Now there are all the possible rooms, all the possible everything, for the reason that they are going to exist "after". Now is the infinity, and our pov is simply a limitation. 

Yes, but you don't know if you are going to walk to the room, so it only exists as a possibility, not as an actuality. You could die right now and never go into the room, and it would never become actual. You can't really say the room is actual unless it is currently in your direct experience, simply because you do not know what will "become " actual "in the future" and what will not, and because it actually isn't actual unless in direct experience. Of course it's all happening in the present moment. I do agree that POV is a limitation - all the supposed 'future' and 'past' events happened right now.

[Breakingthewall]

8 minutes ago, amanen said:

Yes, but you don't know if you are going to walk to the room, so it only exists as a possibility

On 25/9/2022 at 7:27 PM, amanen said:

 

it is difficult to avoid temporality when thinking about this. the fact that reality is infinite implies that this room will exist at some moment. since the time is fictitious, it implies that this room exists now. And that implies that there are infinitely many povs outside of your pov right now.

[amanen]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

it is difficult to avoid temporality when thinking about this. the fact that reality is infinite implies that this room will exist at some moment. since the time is fictitious, it implies that this room exists now. And that implies that there are infinitely many povs outside of your pov right now.

The room you would experience in a different dream is a different room. Not everything is going to occur in this one dream. I'm talking about the unfoldment of this particular dream, in it not everything exists. Notice that it's a different dream if it unfolded differently. From the absolute perspective, yes, all possibilities will be exhausted due to everything being infinite, but you can't say the room exists in this dream if you do not enter it. In that sense some other dream where you do go into the room, there it would exist, but it isn't connected to this dream other than by the fact that all moments are in the present moment.

There are never any povs outside yours, there's always one consciousness, and no matter what form you are in, it's always God's.

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, amanen said:

The room you would experience in a different dream is a different room. Not everything is going to occur in this one dream. I'm talking about the unfoldment of this particular dream, in it not everything exists. Notice that it's a different dream if it unfolded differently. From the absolute perspective, yes, all possibilities will be exhausted due to everything being infinite, but you can't say the room exists in this dream if you do not enter it. In that sense some other dream where you do go into the room, there it would exist, but it isn't connected to this dream other than by the fact that all moments are in the present moment.

There are never any povs outside yours, there's always one consciousness, and no matter what form you are in, it's always God's.

if there is going to be a different dream at some point, it is happening now. all dreams are now, you are only aware of yours, since you are the dream. if you completely transcend the dream, you are the formless infinity where you and I are one, but at the same time, we are two different dreams. I doubt that it can be understood, but it's the only explanation possible 

[Matthew85]

21 minutes ago, amanen said:

It doesn't matter if I say only you are conscious, only I am conscious, or that both of us are conscious. You should just go figure if anything I am saying is true or not for yourself.

@amanen I have. It still isn't clear to me. I would say others are having a conscious experience similar to mine. How you are able to to feel they are not is interesting to me and needs further investigation.

How do you avoid falling into delusion while pursuing this work? 

[amanen]

12 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

if there is going to be a different dream at some point, it is happening now. all dreams are now, you are only aware of yours, since you are the dream. if you completely transcend the dream, you are the formless infinity where you and I are one, but at the same time, we are two different dreams. I doubt that it can be understood, but it's the only explanation possible 

It's an assumption that God will exhaust all the other characters in the dream as povs. Why would the dreamer suddenly become an imaginary character inside the dream? It wouldn't even be the same thing, because third person is a very different thing from first person. Why should God try to go through every imaginary supposed pov inside it's dream - that did not even exist in the first place, as what you are not conscious of right now does not exist - when it can just imagine one pov and one universe for this pov, and then make a new universe for each pov it goes through? This doesn't happen in a nightly dream, nor is there real evidence of it happening in reality, other than assuming that it does, because you assume others must also be conscious because you are. Your consciousness extends to include supposed others and the external environment, which means it's larger than your body and you cannot just cut off the body and insert it into another dream where it's another dream character. You need the whole environment with the pov, they are interlinked, and you cannot cut away the body and then insert it into another dream where it exists as a dream character. You either get the whole dream or nothing.

Notice for example that Leo has straight up said that you are imaging him. Do you understand what that means? Maybe you should contemplate that. It doesn't mean that there is a Leo imaging you too. That's an assumption.

Edited September 27, 2022 by amanen

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, amanen said:

It's an assumption that God will exhaust all the other characters in the dream as povs.

Yes, because the reality in infinity. I think that the misunderstanding is to think that we are God having a point of view. rather we are an apparent point of view that really is infinity. everything is infinite. infinity is the only reality. what is difficult to understand is how a certain pov is finite. the only answer is that it is not. it is infinite, it only seems finite. being infinite, all the pov are the same pov, apparently different, and here I'm  already in the field of logic, not real realizations. but it can't be any other way

[amanen]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes, because the reality in infinity. I think that the misunderstanding is to think that we are God having a point of view. rather we are an apparent point of view that really is infinity. everything is infinite. infinity is the only reality. what is difficult to understand is how a certain pov is finite. the only answer is that it is not. it is infinite, it only seems finite. being infinite, all the pov are the same pov, apparently different, and here I'm  already in the field of logic, not real realizations. but it can't be any other way

Yeah I agree, there is no such a thing as finite pov. There is an apparent pov in infinity, that's what I meant.

The infinite making an apparent pov is what I was trying to convey. If there were finite povs, then yeah it would be very different. But reality cannot actually be this way, once you become conscious of how interlinked everything is, and the fact that there never was anything but infinity.

Edited September 27, 2022 by amanen

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, amanen said:

Yeah I agree, there is no such a thing as finite pov. There is an apparent pov in infinity, that's what I meant.

Yes, can't be a finite pov, just appearances. To understand how this apparent pov it unfolds to interact with itself is what none of us understand here. the explanation of solipsism seems superficial

[Sincerity]

18 minutes ago, amanen said:

It's an assumption that God will exhaust all the other characters in the dream as povs. Why would the dreamer suddenly become an imaginary character inside the dream? It wouldn't even be the same thing, because third person is a very different thing from first person. Why should God try to go through every imaginary supposed pov inside it's dream - that did not even exist in the first place, as what you are not conscious of right now does not exist - when it can just imagine one pov and one universe for this pov, and then make a new universe for each pov it goes through? This doesn't happen in a nightly dream, nor is there real evidence of it happening in reality, other than assuming that it does, because you assume others must also be conscious because you are. Your consciousness extends to include supposed others and the external environment, which means it's larger than your body and you cannot just cut off the body and insert it into another dream where it's another dream character. You need the whole environment with the pov, they are interlinked, and you cannot cut away the body and then insert it into another dream where it exists as a dream character. You either get the whole dream or nothing.

Notice for example that Leo has straight up said that you are imaging him. Do you understand what that means? Maybe you should contemplate that. It doesn't mean that there is a Leo imaging you too. That's an assumption.

Great post. I don't know if that's true yet, but I've benn thinking about it and made sense to me. If I'm imagining everything, why would I "later" experience these "povs" I'm imagining, why not create everything from scratch again

[Arthogaan]

The logic of "There is no time so in a way every other POV is happening Now" seems like still clinging to the belief that you are not the only one conscious in your dream. As Leo said, infinite POVs exist now but as potentiality, they are not actuality. 

In actuality you ( you reading this) is the only one conscious being in existence and who knows what will you imagine after you imagine your death.

[amanen]

20 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes, can't be a finite pov, just appearances. To understand how this apparent pov it unfolds to interact with itself is what none of us understand here. the explanation of solipsism seems superficial

Well all the ideas about solipsism are superficial compared to the actuality. But they are pointing towards it, in the limited fashion that they can. It is possible to become conscious of the interconnectedness of this unfoldment though, which grants insight into "how" it is done (though really there is no how), I would rather say the way in which infinite intelligence is utilizing itself rather than 'how' this is done. From what I understand it is a very deep involvement of consciousness that requires one to self-construct everything in the experience. Cutting off one part to act as the ego/human is a very big part of this. To actually experience how this construction occurs, is very different from the ideas. It's actually possible to become conscious of the fact that every single thing is being constructed by your consciousness, and the very ways in which infinite intelligence is being used to make this happen. But this cannot be transmitted in words. It is shockingly different from how one would think it is, yet blatantly obvious once seen, since it was you who was doing the thing in the first place after all.

Edited September 27, 2022 by amanen

[Breakingthewall]

@amanen I have to dig deeper to see it

11 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

actuality you ( you reading this) is the only one conscious being in existence

True, and you too.

[RMQualtrough]

It's just perspective as to what's in or not in motion. If you watch a 2D animation on a white background, if you focus on the animated 2D figures then time seems to be passing. If perspective flips to the white background, it doesn't have any point in time, because it isn't in motion. And the change in perspective is like that...

[Galyna]

1 hour ago, amanen said:

It's an assumption that God will exhaust all the other characters in the dream as povs. Why would the dreamer suddenly become an imaginary character inside the dream? It wouldn't even be the same thing, because third person is a very different thing from first person. Why should God try to go through every imaginary supposed pov inside it's dream - that did not even exist in the first place, as what you are not conscious of right now does not exist - when it can just imagine one pov and one universe for this pov, and then make a new universe for each pov it goes through? This doesn't happen in a nightly dream, nor is there real evidence of it happening in reality, other than assuming that it does, because you assume others must also be conscious because you are. Your consciousness extends to include supposed others and the external environment, which means it's larger than your body and you cannot just cut off the body and insert it into another dream where it's another dream character. You need the whole environment with the pov, they are interlinked, and you cannot cut away the body and then insert it into another dream where it exists as a dream character. You either get the whole dream or nothing.

Notice for example that Leo has straight up said that you are imaging him. Do you understand what that means? Maybe you should contemplate that. It doesn't mean that there is a Leo imaging you too. That's an assumption.

My two cents:

Consciousness does not need to become (let’s imagine possible future and that IT plays one POV at a time) all other POV’s in “my dream” precisely for one reason!!!! INFINITY!

IT can easily create similar POV’s to the characters in my dream, WITH SLITLY DIFFERENT FEATURES in other dreams (to ramify) in the future.

See it as an unfolding fractal, it has so many ramifications. It has to play out all the possible scenarios.

But I do not think it needs to use the same dream. If it is infinite then it has infinite amount of dreams similar to this "my" POV I am experiencing right now. No need to be a copy cat.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Galyna