If I am God, why isn't it easier to feel and know it?

[amanen]

12 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

What about AI art? it is handed to you effortlessly, yet you can enjoy and appreciate it. Tho If I am honest, creating art traditionally with lots of effort makes you appreciate it more. 

Or what about awakening? Is it only meaningful if you have to meditate rigorously for 40 years to get it? Psychedelics handed awakening to me effortlessly, and I have found it incredibly meaningful. My awakening process has been unusually easy. I would not find 40 years of rigorous meditation meaningful.

If I knew I could get the same thing with psychedelics, I would find the 40 years rigorous meditation meaningless instead of meaningful. Why go through such a struggle when it can be so easy?

Of course if I did go through the meditation route, I would probably pride myself on my suffering, and despise the psychedelics route as inferior, and find my struggle meaningful. But that's only because I had to struggle, if I didn't have to struggle and had an easier alternative, I would not find any meaning in it. 

[ardacigin]

27 minutes ago, amanen said:

If I knew I could get the same thing with psychedelics, I would find the 40 years rigorous meditation meaningless instead of meaningful. Why go through such a struggle when it can be so easy?

You are not getting the 'same thing'. With meditation, you are permanently awakening the deepest recesses of the unconscious mind. 

Not 1% deeply awake and wise in a psychedelic session and 99% of the day spent in abject suffering and absolute delusion. You are currently not conscious looking at this screen, in a state of crude duality, suffering and self perception.

See, 'easy' is a cop out. Combine psychedelics with industry strength levels of meditation. Or find a balance that works for you. But you can't 'escape' from confronting your delusions. Take the bullet and start practicing ;))

Much love,

Edited September 25, 2022 by ardacigin

[Leo Gura]

The only reason you like God-mode right now is because you've spent most of your life struggling and suffering. So of course now you like it.

You like cheats in a game precisely when you can use one cheat to overcome some impossible struggle. But if the whole game was nothing but cheats, there would be no game, no reward, no meaning, no fun.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Joel3102]

@Leo Gura Is life just God’s RPG? 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, ardacigin said:

You are not getting the 'same thing'. With meditation, you are permanently awakening the deepest recesses of the unconscious mind. 

Not 1% deeply awake and wise in a psychedelic session and 99% of the day spent in abject suffering and absolute delusion. You are currently not conscious looking at this screen, in a state of crude duality, suffering and self perception.

See, 'easy' is a cop out. Combine psychedelics with industry strength levels of meditation. Or find a balance that works for you. But you can't 'escape' from confronting your delusions. Take the bullet and start practicing ;))

Much love,

Why do you assume that he is in an abject state of suffering? perhaps after the psychedelics an opening was created that remains. I think that in many cases this is so. It is not so difficult to access and face your fears and your subconscious suffering if you want to do it and you help yourself with psychedelics. once done, you are released. Meditation is useful because it creates mental discipline, but to access your subconscious, mushrooms or LSD are more effective. I know well people who do Vipassana retreats every year and they are absolutely frauds. they completely avoid facing the fear of rejection that is the basis of their structure. if they dared to take only 100 ug of lsd they would go through hell, but they would look in the mirror. but they never will. they need control, and in the end, meditation is control.

 

[Consilience]

18 hours ago, Matthew85 said:

@Consilience I dedicated the majority of time to it for years traveling the world. We are already God right now. You shouldn't have to mediate several hours a day for 40 years to realize what you already are. 

How many retreats do you go on per year? Who is your teacher? How many hours a day do you practice? What is your main technique/approach? 
 

You keep making excuses about why you shouldn’t have to do the work, why you’ve already done the work, etc. The fact of the matter is, this takes time, sometimes 10+ years depending on the persons karma. Keep going is the best advice you’ll receive but if you don’t have the wisdom to receive it, you’re not going to find what you’re looking for. 

[Consilience]

55 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Meditation is useful because it creates mental discipline, but to access your subconscious, mushrooms or LSD are more effective. I know well people who do Vipassana retreats every year and they are absolutely frauds. they completely avoid facing the fear of rejection that is the basis of their structure. if they dared to take only 100 ug of lsd they would go through hell, but they would look in the mirror. but they never will. they need control, and in the end, meditation is control.

Nope. Meditation is extremely effective at accessing and ACTUALLY reprogramming the subconscious mind, unlike psychedelics which offer temporary shifts. The examples you’re describing are not indicative of meditation, but the individuals. If the individuals really wanted to go in and face their fears, reprogram their minds, deconstruct their world views and seek truth, meditation is an indispensable tool. Meditation doesn’t necessarily or automatically create transformation, it demands the practitioner do more than just the practice - contemplation, right action, speech, thought, studying, and working with a real teacher.

[Consilience]

3 hours ago, ardacigin said:

You are not getting the 'same thing'. With meditation, you are permanently awakening the deepest recesses of the unconscious mind. 

Not 1% deeply awake and wise in a psychedelic session and 99% of the day spent in abject suffering and absolute delusion. You are currently not conscious looking at this screen, in a state of crude duality, suffering and self perception.

See, 'easy' is a cop out. Combine psychedelics with industry strength levels of meditation. Or find a balance that works for you. But you can't 'escape' from confronting your delusions. Take the bullet and start practicing ;))

Much love,

Real wisdom. Your posts are a breath of fresh air around these parts. 

I would add, their comes a point when even psychedelics stop being as useful. The time spent preparing, tripping, and coming down would have been better spent just meditating.

Again, unlike psychedelics, meditation create permanent shifts in mental activity and permanent shifts in one’s direct experience. The significance of this is so fucking critical, and Im still utterly shocked how so many on this forum completely miss this. 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

Meditation is extremely effective at accessing and ACTUALLY reprogramming the subconscious mind, unlike psychedelics which offer temporary shifts

not always! a psychedelic experience can have permanent effects. first, it can release hidden trauma. second, it can radically reconfigure the energy body. not everyone is the same, not all roads are the same. meditation is useful, very effective, but for me it is same important the vital attitude. understand what actions strengthen the ego. refrain from doing them. purify yourself to the maximum, whatever the cost. no need for a beaten path, just follow your intuition. About the find a teacher...I do not see it for now. when I have associated with spiritual people they have seemed narrow-minded, but it doesn't mean that it couldn't appear the right one. 

 

 

[Javfly33]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

second, it can radically reconfigure the energy body. 

Yes, that is very important and one of the crucial unique benefits of psychedelics Vs other practices/tools.

 

[ardacigin]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Why do you assume that he is in an abject state of suffering? perhaps after the psychedelics an opening was created that remains. I think that in many cases this is so. It is not so difficult to access and face your fears and your subconscious suffering if you want to do it and you help yourself with psychedelics. once done, you are released. Meditation is useful because it creates mental discipline, but to access your subconscious, mushrooms or LSD are more effective. I know well people who do Vipassana retreats every year and they are absolutely frauds. they completely avoid facing the fear of rejection that is the basis of their structure. if they dared to take only 100 ug of lsd they would go through hell, but they would look in the mirror. but they never will. they need control, and in the end, meditation is control.

 

No spiritually advanced meditator would have ANY problems taking 100 ug LSD. That is usually their permanent state and is not even that high of a dose.

Everyone is so knee deep in suffering is that you may not see that whatever 'after glow' of 5 meo dmt might persist, the self did coagulate and craving has reared its head 100%. You are back in duality and delusion once again. After glow is not something you should attach your practice with. Unless you do DEEP insight practice while the after glow persists. The same work you could be doing RIGHT NOW reading these words.

 Unless insight penetrates and changes the deepest recesses of your psyche, you'll never permanently awaken. Psychedelics unfortunately fail to effect on the deepest level. But you should use these incredibly profound experiences to inform your current state of consciousness RIGHT NOW and integrate it to the deepest level. 

Meditation is the anti-thesis of control. Dont misunderstand what this practice is all about. If vipassana teachers told you that they either meant something different (like training attention or concentration) or it is your current experience in meditation which you can work on in your next session. 

Much love,

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by ardacigin

[ardacigin]

2 hours ago, Consilience said:

Again, unlike psychedelics, meditation create permanent shifts in mental activity and permanent shifts in one’s direct experience. The significance of this is so fucking critical, and Im still utterly shocked how so many on this forum completely miss this. 

I understand why people have the tendency to downplay it. We are all very attached beings. Accepting that psychedelic experiences and insights (however profound)  are something that you can access RIGHT NOW is a bitter pill to swallow. 

The inability to access this wisdom right now, spending many hours in delusion and normal states of suffering and ALL these negative habits one has been reinforcing unconsciously, you attach to psychedelics as your savior and find yourself at a dead end.

Decades can pass if you are not careful and just like '20 years of  meditation and has nothing to show for it' -like mistaken argument becomes your own reality. Psychedelics, if used, should be practiced judiciously. Not out of context bashing meditation AS IF these are in some sort of a competition 

When people here actually start to get some nice traction and development from their meditation practice, then they will actually go signifcantly deeper in their psychedelic sessions IF they choose to do it.You actually wont even have a craving for having any experience in particular post-awakening. The suffering that motivated you to get some relief with psychedelics is not quite there anymore.

By not committing to awake permanently and not practicing meditation as if your hair is on fire, people have NO IDEA what sort of a mistake they are doing. Everyone's vibe here would be significantly different if they were stream enterers.(which is only the first stage of awakening. And life changing if I might add)

The dead end of 'chasing experiences and wisdom in psychedelics' must be overcome as soon as possible.

Much love

Edited September 25, 2022 by ardacigin

[amanen]

6 hours ago, ardacigin said:

You are not getting the 'same thing'. With meditation, you are permanently awakening the deepest recesses of the unconscious mind. 

Not 1% deeply awake and wise in a psychedelic session and 99% of the day spent in abject suffering and absolute delusion. You are currently not conscious looking at this screen, in a state of crude duality, suffering and self perception.

See, 'easy' is a cop out. Combine psychedelics with industry strength levels of meditation. Or find a balance that works for you. But you can't 'escape' from confronting your delusions. Take the bullet and start practicing ;))

Much love,

The kinds of awakenings I have had are simply the kind that I do not believe meditators are accessing because I have not heard them talk about these kinds of states. You can take a look at my trip report for some reference, and this is not one the deepest awakening I have had. 

I just don't hear meditators talk about anything even remotely close to this, and this is not a state I am able to be in while functioning as a human. It is simply impossible. These kinds of awakenings are the ones I care about, and this level of depth simply cannot be sustained while being in a human body. To me to simply any state as a human is a form of suffering compared to this, I don't disagree about that, but I don't think meditation will let me reach these infinite levels of intelligence that I value. I don't care about something like having no 'cravings'.

I mainly care about infinite love, and this is not something that I often hear meditators talk about. The kind of love I am talking about is so deep it can destroy the universe or create a new one. It is so deep that it kills you completely. And if I am dead, I cannot live. I am here to live, regardless of all the suffering this brings me. To me no matter what state I am in, even a nondual state (that I frequently access - even when sober) while having a human body, is incomparable to these experiences. For me the kind of total and complete enlightenment is something I cannot access while I am being a human, so I will do with accessing these states whenever I feel like it. My definition of a total enlightenment experience is so radically potent that it isn't possible as a human. I don't consider myself to be enlightened all the time, even now, and this is not a goal of mine, because if I were to go for the depth I seek permanently, I would have to actually die. I already feel like there is no separate self in my direct experience all of the time, but I don't really care about that much.

I am not looking for a baseline increase, I am looking for states so utterly unremoved from what we consider as possible that they simply cannot be brought out by simple meditation, at least not as far as I have heard. There might be exceptions. I am not trying to disparage meditation, I just don't think it would take me these states that psychedelics have taken me into. Each has their own function.

Edited September 25, 2022 by amanen

[axiom]

Psychedelics do seem to substantially rewire the brain such that the degree of conditioning may actually be similar to meditation, after repeated trips, with relatively less tedium.

I have done lots of both. 

Meditation seemed to rewire the mind and raise the baseline level a lot after decades of practice. Psychedelics were more like action potentials / neurochemical spikes. Some trips are so enormous in scale that Leo quite rightly says that meditative states can't generally compare except in extraordinarily rare circumstances. The effects of a breakthrough tryptamine dose can still be felt months or years afterwards, and lab tests show significant neurogenesis - not easily dismissed if you believe in neurobiology, materialism, and/or storylines in general.

The moral here is that meditation shouldn't be underestimated. Psychedelics also shouldn't be underestimated. If you find yourself dogmatically favouring one over the other, in all likelihood there is some egoic bias there, i.e. you're overlaying your personal story on to what is.

@ardacigin @Consilience

Getting hooked on the idea of a long and arduous path is a dogma, and is just another place for the illusory self to hide. For some it will take lifetimes. Others might not be sleeping to begin with. 

On awakening, all of this is a story of course... so it cannot be taken too seriously.

Edited September 25, 2022 by axiom

[Javfly33]

25 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

I understand why people have the tendency to downplay it. We are all very attached beings. Accepting that psychedelic experiences and insights (however profound)  are something that you can access RIGHT NOW is a bitter pill to swallow. 

 

I agree but I think the question is, are there any tools to access those insights and experiences right now? Meditation might be a tool but saying "practice for 20 years and you'll see" it's quite the leap faith. 

By not committing to awake permanently and not practicing meditation as if your hair is on fire, people have NO IDEA what sort of a mistake they are doing.

 

I agree but I think that is because there doesn't seem to be much evidence that meditating would produce those results you seem to speak of

The dead end of 'chasing experiences and wisdom in psychedelics' must be overcome as soon as possible.

I agree, partially. There some instances where I think psychedelics can play a crucial role. Having said that I also think there has to be a point they must be dropped.

 

 

[Jodistrict]

22 hours ago, Consilience said:

Edit: Leo once said in a blog post we should be going on silent retreats once a quarter. This is a good place to start. Having actually followed through the this advice the last 2.5 years, I can confirm it works. Have you thrown yourself in completely and utterly? Have you worked to build a lifestyle around this path? If not, you’re not going to wake up. There is a reason sages, mystics, monks, and yogis give up everything to pursue the truth. It is a full time endeavor. 

I recently returned from the Amazon and did a proper plant diet with a shaman.  I discovered that the plant diet is actually a rigorous ascetic discipline.  I did it for two weeks, but real shamen do it for 30 days to six months.  During the diet you only eat yams, rice, beans, and what you can kill in the jungle.  There is no salt and sugar.  You drink water from the stream.   You make a bed with sticks so that you sleep above the ground.  You spend all day purging and cleansing.  During a purge you will be throwing up for five to six hours straight. You take chiric sanango which feels like ants crawling over your body.  It’s only after the rigorous preparations of the plant diet that you take Ayahuasca.   If the plant finds you worthy, you will receive her wisdom and visions with clarity.  So to sum up:  the proper use of Ayahuasca is a rigorous discipline equally demanding as meditation.  There are no quick fixes.  There is no magic bullet.  Psychedelics by themselves will do nothing for you.  There is no magic key.  This is fantasy.

[ardacigin]

1 hour ago, amanen said:

I don't care about something like having no 'cravings'.

 

1 hour ago, amanen said:

I am not looking for a baseline increase, I am looking for states so utterly unremoved from what we consider as possible that they simply cannot be brought out by simple meditation

First of all, these are the reasons you are not awake permanently right now. (among other things obviously) The sort of dissatisfaction, delusion, lack of love and suffering you experience right now is on a humongous scale. It is so for everyone. It is the human condition. And you can see through this RIGHT NOW.

I did read your trip report. Whatever power these experiences have over you right now is a function of your mind. I have done countless psychedelics.

The first paragraph is my  effortless daily conscious experience of awakening. For the remaning, I would need to meditate for long periods of time. But thats not important because my mind no longer works like before. I have these insights regardless of having these profound experiences. You become a different being. Let me break down the elephant in the room.

Masters dont talk about these stuff as they are not the core of this path. These experiences generate desire and aversion which 100% guarantees you'll never have them.  Your desire to have such bombastic experiences are no longer so important post awakening. All experiences have the same qualities of truth. Imagine that.

All the emotions of love, experiences, bliss and 'becoming god creating multi universes' was a construct of your mind. Your 'imaginations' in other words. All the insights you attained (true love, no self, interconnectedness of all phenomena, emptiness, seeing through why you suffer as a 'human' impermanence etc) are NOT the construct of your mind. Simple as that.

I have no problem with psychedelics personally and I recommend them with judicious use along with meditation.

Much love

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by ardacigin

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

I recently returned from the Amazon and did a proper plant diet with a shaman.  I discovered that the plant diet is actually a rigorous ascetic discipline.  I did it for two weeks, but real shamen do it for 30 days to six months.  During the diet you only eat yams, rice, beans, and what you can kill in the jungle.  There is no salt and sugar.  You drink water from the stream.   You make a bed with sticks so that you sleep above the ground.  You spend all day purging and cleansing.  During a purge you will be throwing up for five to six hours straight. You take chiric sanango which feels like ants crawling over your body.  It’s only after the rigorous preparations of the plant diet that you take Ayahuasca.   If the plant finds you worthy, you will receive her wisdom and visions with clarity.  So to sum up:  the proper use of Ayahuasca is a rigorous discipline equally demanding as meditation.  There are no quick fixes.  There is no magic bullet.  Psychedelics by themselves will do nothing for you.  There is no magic key.  This is fantasy.

6 hours ago, Consilience said:

 

Interesting! You have to get out of the comfort zone without fear. the spiritual journey also requires a material journey. it is not enough to take lsd in your living room, you have to let go of material ties as well

[amanen]

2 hours ago, ardacigin said:

 

First of all, these are the reasons you are not awake permanently right now. (among other things obviously) The sort of dissatisfaction, delusion, lack of love and suffering you experience right now is on a humongous scale. It is so for everyone. It is the human condition. And you can see through this RIGHT NOW.

I did read your trip report. Whatever power these experiences have over you right now is a function of your mind. I have done countless psychedelics.

The first paragraph is my  effortless daily conscious experience of awakening. For the remaning, I would need to meditate for long periods of time. But thats not important because my mind no longer works like before. I have these insights regardless of having these profound experiences. You become a different being. Let me break down the elephant in the room.

Masters dont talk about these stuff as they are not the core of this path. These experiences generate desire and aversion which 100% guarantees you'll never have them.  Your desire to have such bombastic experiences are no longer so important post awakening. All experiences have the same qualities of truth. Imagine that.

All the emotions of love, experiences, bliss and 'becoming god creating multi universes' was a construct of your mind. Your 'imaginations' in other words. All the insights you attained (true love, no self, interconnectedness of all phenomena, emptiness, seeing through why you suffer as a 'human' impermanence etc) are NOT the construct of your mind. Simple as that.

I have no problem with psychedelics personally and I recommend them with judicious use along with meditation.

Much love

 

Yes, permanent awakening is not my goal, my goal in life is to have as many rich and varied experiences as possible. I love the form, I love the different qualities, that's the whole point of being human to me. Don't get me wrong, from a human standpoint I rarely have almost any negative emotions, my daily life is filled with fun, enjoyment, and love (of the human level), most of the time I am aware to varying degrees that I am god, and I can usually even enter some kind of state of nondual awareness, and I don't feel like I am hearing or seeing things, et cetera, they just happen. Now maybe that sounds like a really good state, but when I said I consider this suffering I meant pretty much any human state that includes a body, because to me it just seems that anything you can do as a human doesn't come even close to what I've experienced. It's part of being human. Maybe suffering was a too strong word to use, I don't know how to convey it, but what I mean isn't just a sort of peace, I can enter those kinds of peaceful states easily. I don't mean it in the sense of craving or desire. I don't believe that desire is what causes suffering, after all, this is God's desire. The kind of state that I would consider 'full enlightenment' for me is on the scale of infinite consciousness, and I'm just not going to be able to sustain that. My consciousness would be too focused on consciousness itself to actually do anything, I need a lower level of consciousness to even be able to function as a human. I also know all of those were my imaginations, but I love my imagination, imagination is one of the things I enjoy the most. I love form, but also the formless. I also love the truth, but I love a lot of other things too. I'm too madly in love with my girlfriend that I could take time away from her (and a lot of other things) for the sole pursuit of enlightenment. Psychedelics give me a nice way to get both. I've experienced both, and I don't want solely one or the other. Even when I enter any kind of peak state and do once again reach different levels of awakening ranging from basic awakenings to becoming conscious of infinite degrees of love and so on, I never regret having lived like this, and would not trade it for some sort of higher level of total permanent awakening. It's just what I like, I like both sides.

[JuliusCaesar]

On 9/24/2022 at 0:44 PM, Matthew85 said:

@JuliusCaesar Have you found any ways to achieve expanded states outside of psychedelics? They are not practical for every day use. 

I have found a way, however, it's far from being perfected and isn't even in use by myself, as I haven't worked the bugs out of it yet, it would be perceived as me being irresponsible to discuss it here also. So, I'm currently considering either finding a different way or devising some kind of possible modification that may make it better/less potentially deleterious.