Feminism makes women more masculine... Umm...do you agree?

[mr_engineer]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

If you totally reject this idea, then this contradicts your whole argument againts feminism.

In this discussion masculinity and femininity only means a category, where you can find a set of behaviour expressions. Basically, both masculinity and femininity is about a way you act in the world, so they are learnable.

No, they're not a way you act in the world. They are energies. That you feel. And that show you the way to authentic expression. 

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

I would switch the word men with the word masculine and I would switch the word women with the word feminine. The reason for that, is because it describes our society much better, and it holds less dogma.

No, it is 'men' and 'women'. Biological men and women. 

3 minutes ago, zurew said:

Yes, I agree, but we are not talking about most men or most women. We are talking about a specific set of man and women (feminists).

Feminism is the conditioning here. I'm talking about the actual facts about biological men and women. 

For the sake of argument, let's assume 2 genders that are biologically defined. 

[zurew]

5 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

No, it is 'men' and 'women'. Biological men and women. 

There are women who are masculine, and there are men who are feminine. 

In other words there are men who are more emotional than women and there are women who are more logical than men. 

5 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

They are energies. That you feel. And that show you the way to authentic expression. 

What makes it authentic?

5 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I'm talking about the actual facts about biological men and women. 

Facts that are true for some men and for some women, but again I have to remind you, its not true for all men and women.

Edited September 28, 2022 by zurew

[mr_engineer]

4 minutes ago, something_else said:

In what contexts?

From women. Women lionize the 'strong, independent women' and see traditional women as 'weak'. 

3 minutes ago, something_else said:

My mother is a successful and independent woman in a male-dominated field who has frequently been on the receiving end of sexism, chauvinism, and just general dickheadedness from many of the men she works with because of her independent and driven nature.

Oh boy. If we're comparing this to the abuse that feminists do to men, it pales in comparison. That is institutional. 

7 minutes ago, something_else said:

Your sense of what happens in the world is possibly based too much on what you read online.

Don't make assumptions. 

7 minutes ago, something_else said:

I am trying to understand what role you think women should play in the world. So I will ask you that. In your perfect world, what role should women play?

This is a loaded question. When I answer this, you will say 'you're being self-biased', when you're asking me to tell you my biases!! Which is irrelevant to a discussion about the facts. I'd suggest we stick to facts. 

[zurew]

17 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

This is a loaded question. When I answer this, you will say 'you're being self-biased', when you're asking me to tell you my biases!! Which is irrelevant to a discussion about the facts. I'd suggest we stick to facts. 

Of course it was a loaded question, because it was about a prescription.  The reason why he was asking about a prescription, is because your disagreement is not a fact based disagreement, but a disagreement about the how it should or should not be.

 

You can have the same set of facts and make different prescriptions.

Edited September 28, 2022 by zurew

[something_else]

Quote

Oh boy. If we're comparing this to the abuse that feminists do to men, it pales in comparison. That is institutional. 

From your perspective it is worse because you are a man. What are some concrete examples of things that feminists commonly do to abuse men?

Quote

This is a loaded question. When I answer this, you will say 'you're being self-biased', when you're asking me to tell you my biases!!

I'm trying to understand your perspective instead of being dragged into a messy debate, which is where this is going. I really am just curious what you think the role of women in a perfect society is. I think it will help me understand where you are coming from better.

Quote

Which is irrelevant to a discussion about the facts. I'd suggest we stick to facts. 

This is very much a subjective issue, not a factual one.

Edited September 28, 2022 by something_else

[mr_engineer]

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

Of course it was a loaded question, because it was about a prescription.  The reason why he was asking about a prescription, is because your disagreement is not a fact based disagreement, but a disagreement about the how it should or should not be.

I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. It's just facts and consequences. If you want them, your call! 

[Tyler Robinson]

56 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

But I also think that third wave feminism has positive aspects you're not seeing. Not forcing everyone in society (including trans and non-binary folks) to confirm to gender roles that they're not comfortable with helps those individuals live a life of dignity and authenticity. Those people are also part of the few whose experiences count.

I don't see where I stated anything about trans people. I was talking about feminist women. Why unnecessarily strawman my arguments and make something else out of it? Did you even ask my opinion about trans people and their gender roles? I have no problem with non binary folks conform to whatever suits them. I was only talking about feminist women. It had zero context with non binary or trans people. I understand that their experiences count but they can obviously be discussed separately. Nobody was targeting them. I was talking about the general female feminist population that sticks to the ideals of Masculinity that can be toxic to women who wish to preserve their core femininity and not get brainwashed by other feminists. Please stick to the issue and don't meander it into something else. And I never talked about strict gender roles. If some women wish to be masculine, the hell with them, who cares. But other women shouldn't be forced to follow suit. I have no problem with diverse gender roles just that I don't wish to comform to it. 

[zurew]

8 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. It's just facts and consequences. If you want them, your call! 

what I am suggesting is that your analysis of the facts are not impartial and ideologically motivated (which is not a problem), but you have to be honest here. If you truly believe that feminism has a net negative effect on society, then why wouldn't you be against it?

 

Also, making judgement calls is inherently subjective.

Edited September 28, 2022 by zurew

[mr_engineer]

14 minutes ago, something_else said:

From your perspective it is worse because you are a man. What are some concrete examples of things that feminists commonly do to abuse men?

False accusations, promotion of a 'work hard, party hard' life for women, which is inherently masculine. Also, unsafe for women. 

Bad HR-departments who are on a witch-hunt for men, whose job is to incriminate men. 

Cancel-culture, censorship, abuse of the metoo movement. 

17 minutes ago, something_else said:

I'm trying to understand your perspective instead of being dragged into a messy debate, which is where this is going. I really am just curious what you think the role of women in a perfect society is. I think it will help me understand where you are coming from better.

It's an inherently sexist question. I'm not dodging it, it just is assuming that I'm being sexist. 

[mr_engineer]

20 minutes ago, zurew said:

Of course it was a loaded question, because it was about a prescription.  The reason why he was asking about a prescription, is because your disagreement is not a fact based disagreement, but a disagreement about the how it should or should not be.

 

You can have the same set of facts and make different prescriptions.

This prescription is not mine to make. My opinions come based on a lot of extensive discussions with non-feminist women. I can't have it with feminist women cuz of the echo-chamber like paradigm-lock. 

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I can't have it with feminist women cuz of the echo-chamber like paradigm-lock. 

Thats confirmation bias. You are in an echo chamber as well, if you don't care about opinions, that are outside of your paradigm.

If you are selecting anti feminist women, of course the picture you will get from them will be totally different from a feminist. 

 

You can't understand feminism if you don't know or care about their thoughts and ideology, and arguments. 

4 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

My opinions come based on a lot of extensive discussions with non-feminist women

So you are not basing your stance on stats?

[mr_engineer]

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

Thats confirmation bias. You are in an echo chamber as well, if you don't care about opinions, that are outside of your paradigm.

If you are selecting anti feminist women, of course the picture you will get from them will be totally different from a feminist. 

 

You can't understand feminism if you don't know or care about their thoughts and ideology, and arguments.

Why should I care about man-hate?! They're 'strong and independent' anyways, so I doubt they give a damn about my opinion anyways. 

4 minutes ago, zurew said:

So you are not basing your stance on stats?

I don't really care about being an SJW. I care about the lived experiences of the people I care about. And, they sure as hell aren't feminists, cuz they don't need it!! 

[zurew]

16 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I don't really care about being an SJW. I care about the lived experiences of the people I care about. And, they sure as hell aren't feminists, cuz they don't need it!! 

Caring about stats is not directly related to being an SJW. You should care about stats if you really care about the facts that you often talk about.

So basically, you have a very strong stance on this issue, and a lot of assumptions, but you haven't checked the stats, and you still not open to their view?

16 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I care about the lived experiences of the people I care about.

Nope, you care about a certain set of people, who had a certain lived experience about this issue, and you ignore all the contrary ones.

16 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Why should I care about man-hate?! They're 'strong and independent' anyways, so I doubt they give a damn about my opinion anyways. 

Whats your steelman version of feminism? If you say man-hate, then we don't have much to talk about here, because you don't understand feminism as an ideology at all. If you claim to understand it, then I would be curious about your steelman version of it.

Edited September 28, 2022 by zurew

[mr_engineer]

Just now, zurew said:

Caring about stats is not directly related to being an SJW. You should care about stats if you really care about the facts that you often talk about.

I care about some facts, not others. 

And I definitely don't care about agreeing with the consensus, cuz it's inconvenient to my agenda. 

1 minute ago, zurew said:

Nope, you care about a certain set of people, who had a certain lived experience about this issue, and you ignore all the contrary ones.

That's true. 

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

Whats your steelman version of feminism? If you say man-hate, then we don't have much to talk about here, because you don't understand feminism as an ideology at all. If you claim to understand it, then I would be curious about your steelman version of it.

I don't have a steelman version of feminism. I don't even believe in 'equality'. I believe in fairness. Which is different from 'equality', cuz men and women are fundamentally different. 

[mr_engineer]

Okay. So, after some thought, here's my steelman version of feminism. Here's what it boils down to - women should not have to blindly take on a male morality and follow it. This male morality is naturally male-biased and women perceive it to be 'the patriarchy'. 

Now, where they go wrong, is that they assume that 'equality' is the solution to this problem. I disagree with the actions being taken in the name of 'equality' and I think they are highly destructive to society. Especially the family-unit. The actual solution is for women to have their own feminine epistemology, which is feelings-first (the masculine epistemology is facts-first because it's action-oriented) and have feminine versions of 'God' to worship, like the New-Age women do. This will undo a lot of damage that male-dominated religion has done to women. And because women will have their own feminine power, they can end this power-struggle against men. 

Someone here asked me 'what role should women play in your ideal world?' That is how you repeat the exact mistake that led to feminism to begin with! To construct a morality for women. This attitude is the root-cause of sexism. And feminism as it is in the world today is not immune to this. The governments are still male-dominated, the 1% are still male-dominated and the laws they're going to pass 'for equal rights' will still be benevolently sexist. Fine, there are some surface-level solutions needed, but it's not going to make feminists happy until they really resolve the root-issue, which is an unconsciousness relative to femininity as a whole. 

And one final point - a lot of 'male feminists' think that if women get to 'enjoy' the kind of life that men have and aspire to, which is one in which they're financially independent, they get to roam at night and fuck around, this is their idea of 'being compassionate towards women'. And that's the form their 'advocacy for women' or 'male feminism' takes. While well-intentioned and upholding the value of 'equality', the fundamental mistake here is the overlooking of the differences between us. Biological differences. Including the fact that women bear children, men don't. And that men have more physical strength than women. So, if we are to decide to be fairer to women, the system will look very different from what you guys are trying to do. Now, how will it look, is a choice that's yours.

And believe me, the changes that'll come will be very different from what we're trying to do. For example, some New-Agers are saying that we should have 13 months in a year instead of 12, because women have 13 menstrual cycles in a year. That's how fundamental and radical our changes are going to have to be, if we really want to do this! 

Edited September 30, 2022 by mr_engineer

[something_else]

47 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Okay. So, after some thought, here's my steelman version of feminism. Here's what it boils down to - women should not have to blindly take on a male morality and follow it. This male morality is naturally male-biased and women perceive it to be 'the patriarchy'. 

Now, where they go wrong, is that they assume that 'equality' is the solution to this problem. I disagree with the actions being taken in the name of 'equality' and I think they are highly destructive to society. Especially the family-unit. The actual solution is for women to have their own feminine epistemology, which is feelings-first (the masculine epistemology is facts-first because it's action-oriented) and have feminine versions of 'God' to worship, like the New-Age women do. This will undo a lot of damage that male-dominated religion has done to women. And because women will have their own feminine power, they can end this power-struggle against men. 

Someone here asked me 'what role should women play in your ideal world?' That is how you repeat the exact mistake that led to feminism to begin with! To construct a morality for women. This attitude is the root-cause of sexism. And feminism as it is in the world today is not immune to this. The governments are still male-dominated, the 1% are still male-dominated and the laws they're going to pass 'for equal rights' will still be benevolently sexist. Fine, there are some surface-level solutions needed, but it's not going to make feminists happy until they really resolve the root-issue, which is an unconsciousness relative to femininity as a whole. 

And one final point - a lot of 'male feminists' think that if women get to 'enjoy' the kind of life that men have and aspire to, which is one in which they're financially independent, they get to roam at night and fuck around, this is their idea of 'being compassionate towards women'. And that's the form their 'advocacy for women' or 'male feminism' takes. While well-intentioned and upholding the value of 'equality', the fundamental mistake here is the overlooking of the differences between us. Biological differences. Including the fact that women bear children, men don't. And that men have more physical strength than women. So, if we are to decide to be fairer to women, the system will look very different from what you guys are trying to do. Now, how will it look, is a choice that's yours.

And believe me, the changes that'll come will be very different from what we're trying to do. For example, some New-Agers are saying that we should have 13 months in a year instead of 12, because women have 13 menstrual cycles in a year. That's how fundamental and radical our changes are going to have to be, if we really want to do this! 

I wondered why it was so frustrating to discuss things with you and I’ve worked out why. You string together lots of words but make almost no coherent points.