Feminism makes women more masculine... Umm...do you agree?

[Tyler Robinson]

51 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I got falsely accused by a girl in high-school and the female teachers abused their power over me in that situation. This caused me to lose confidence with women forever and hate women for a long period of time. All thanks to feminism. 

I was raised by a single mother, I didn't have a father. She decided to be a 'strong, independent woman' instead of remarrying. Thanks feminism. I only had one parent. 

Now I see why some of you 'male feminists' appear so ignorant about the practical realities of feminism. And how it affects us. 

Thanks for understanding my situation 

I went through something similar with feminist women. I lost my job because of a feminist type of boss. She fired me for no reason just because I wouldn't bend over backwards to her stupid ideas. 

[something_else]

5 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

It's clear we don't get along. Don't keep dragging me. All of my hostile energy comes from your passive aggressiveness directed at me although you don't see it, I feel it coming from the nature of your  comments. There's a pattern where you constantly feel the need to disagree with me and it can become a headache after a while. Just move on please. I don't appreciate talking to you. It gets on my nerves. I'm forced to talk to you when you pop up in my threads. (you feel like I'm hostile to you but I feel like you are always passive aggressive with me and always invalidating my points. It gets annoying after a while, the constant indirect bashing you do to me, and then when I clap back, the victim playing by setting me up to look antagonistic, let's say just say we don't get along and there is no need to show it to the whole forum. I don't need to be subjected to your constant invalidation and critique. There are others here that I disagree with in more polite ways without me feeling smeared or put down ). Your constant disagreeable nitpicky attitude. A few disagreements are fine, but when there's a pattern it can feel invalidating and aggressive. Maybe you're the reason I didn't want to be in the dating section. You blame other men but fail to see how you constantly act in a way that gets annoying and triggering,constantly making me look bad, it doesn't feel good to me either. It's indirect hostility. Your constant comments on "don't be hostile" "don't be aggressive" "don't berate", your constant victim playing and making extreme out of my behavior, it's like your comments set me up for a bad temper and then you bash me for my reactions, every time I read your comments it makes me uncomfortable/upset. If you can't handle shit and are overly sensitive then we can't get along and I don't want this cold war circus with you. Just avoid me, best. I'll avoid you in the future. 

Try to have some understanding when someone clearly dislikes the way you talk and constantly misinterpret. 

Peace. 

It's not my fault you get annoyed at my posts. I just explained my view on the topic, my post wasn't really directed specifically at you. They were general points about my opinion on feminism which differ from yours. Then you responded with a weirdly hostile retort making it personal and dramatic. Now you're trying to construct some narrative where I am evil.

[something_else]

 

Quote

Now I see why some of you 'male feminists' appear so ignorant about the practical realities of feminism. And how it affects us. 

I wouldn't describe myself as a male feminist. I simply see how feminism fits into the world and why it's necessary. Men have dominated and abused women since the dawn of time, and they still do. Feminism's place is to be a counterbalance to that. Yea, some men will suffer because of feminist ideas, naturally. But it's not really comparable to the scale of suffering many women experience at the hands of men, which feminism exists to fight against.

What happened to you is bad, and I'm sorry you had to deal with that. But most men won't have a story about how feminism has wronged them. Almost every woman will have one (if not multiple) stories about being abused physically or sexually by men. This was the point I was making. It's about the scale of the problems faced by each side.

[mr_engineer]

@something_else It's going to become more and more apparent with the rise of divorce-rates and broken homes. 

The whole idea of 'independence' is fundamentally flawed, as said in the OP. No, it's not about being more loving towards women. It's about women being more 'independent'. They believe in the idea of 'independence' so strongly that if a woman decides to not be 'independent', she'll be seen as 'regressive'. Then, all of your 'expansion of consciousness and love' will get thrown out of the window, as a feminist! And you'll become even more fascist than the patriarchs themselves, with your cancel-culture. 

[Tyler Robinson]

2 hours ago, something_else said:

It's not my fault you get annoyed at my posts. I just explained my view on the topic, my post wasn't really directed specifically at you. They were general points about my opinion on feminism which differ from yours. Then you responded with a weirdly hostile retort making it personal and dramatic. Now you're trying to construct some narrative where I am evil.

You do the same to me. You make anything I say unnecessarily dramatic, like you said I was being hostile when I simply told you to move on. We can argue for hours but I won't appreciate it. Now you are saying that I called you evil when I never called you evil. You don't see that you are the one who is making it too extreme and dramatic when I'm clearly disinterested and trying my best to avoid talking to you. Because I am the one who doesn't want anymore drama with you. You can keep arguing with me that I am the one who is doing it, but have some decency, if someone is triggered by your comments, probably stop triggering them further. It's not your fault but you can definitely cut communication when you see the other person isn't happy communicating with you. This is the second time that I'm politely requesting you to avoid me, it's best. I don't want any arguments with you. You're unnecessarily trying to extend this when I'm not interested in debating you. Be done with it please. I told you to move on and avoid me. I'm putting you on my  ignore list and I won't be replying to your comments in the future. Kindly do the same. And please don't make a massive drama out of this, just say okay and move on. Please I don't wish to reply you anymore. 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Tyler Robinson

[something_else]

Quote

It's going to become more and more apparent with the rise of divorce-rates and broken homes

Most marriages have always been cesspools of toxicity, rising divorce rates are simply because divorce is more socially acceptable now. It's not because marriages are more toxic nowadays or because women are more independent.

28 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

They believe in the idea of 'independence' so strongly that if a woman decides to not be 'independent', she'll be seen as 'regressive'

Strongly independent women face far more backlash from society in day-to-day life than traditional women do.

Quote

No, it's not about being more loving towards women. It's about women being more 'independent'

Healthy feminism is largely about giving women the choice to live their lives however they choose, instead of being forced into submission. Some women will choose to be independent, just as some men may choose to live more submissive lives. Forcing everyone into traditional gender roles is not a good thing.

 

[mr_engineer]

35 minutes ago, something_else said:

Most marriages have always been cesspools of toxicity, rising divorce rates are simply because divorce is more socially acceptable now. It's not because marriages are more toxic nowadays or because women are more independent.

So, you say that rising divorce-rates and children growing up without both parents is a good thing?! 

Do you know what happens when a 5-year-old loses a parent?! Say, their father?! 

35 minutes ago, something_else said:

Strongly independent women face far more backlash from society in day-to-day life than traditional women do.

In the past 10 years, I've seen the opposite. 

35 minutes ago, something_else said:

Forcing everyone into traditional gender roles is not a good thing.

I've never really seen this happen. From what I've seen, traditional gender-roles are strongly discouraged nowadays. And the thread talks about the toxicity of that. 

Just to be clear, we're not talking about what happened 50 years ago. We're talking about today's world. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by mr_engineer

[mr_engineer]

Feminism is deeply, deeply tyrannical. Let's not forget the cancel-culture and censorship. The fundamental man-hate they hold is toxic and should not be taken lightly. 

Corporations are lionizing it right now cuz it benefits corporations to have women work, to lower labor-costs. And to have women compete against men. They're the only ones who benefit from it. 

And, as far as women's 'independence' goes, it can be beneficial to have a phase of your life where you're being independent. Simply because it's better than being codependent. But, an entire life of 'independence' is dysfunctional. And unsustainable. (Not very different from men's lives, though, where it can be beneficial to just not think about women for a period of time, but fully going MGTOW is dysfunctional.)

Edited September 28, 2022 by mr_engineer

[zurew]

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

It's going to become more and more apparent with the rise of divorce-rates and broken homes. 

Divorce is not always bad, and divorce is not inherent to feminism. There are feminists who are happily married. 

Broken homes are not inherent to feminism either.

 

You are highlighting and only focusing on hardcore fanatic feminisits and ignore all the healthy aspects of it.

 

11 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

So, you say that rising divorce-rates and children growing up without both parents is a good thing?! 

Growing up with one parent is better than living in a place where the only interaction you see between your parents is fighting and arguing.

Also, higher divorce rate can stem from a million other things than feminism.

4 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

But, an entire life of 'independence' is dysfunctional. And unsustainable.

Why would it be dysfunctional or unsustainable?

[mr_engineer]

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

Divorce is not always bad,

I've been the victim of a divorce as a child. Don't tell me it's not bad. 

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

divorce is not inherent to feminism.

It does align with feminist values of 'independence' and hating men. 

3 minutes ago, zurew said:

There are feminists who are happily married. 

It's very easy to lie. 

3 minutes ago, zurew said:

Broken homes are not inherent to feminism either.

They may not be. But, this is the point of feminism. To break up homes. 

4 minutes ago, zurew said:

You are highlighting and only focusing on hardcore fanatic feminisits and ignore all the healthy aspects of it.

It is man-hating at its core. It's not healthy. 

5 minutes ago, zurew said:

Growing up with one parent is better than living in a place where the only interaction you see between your parents is fighting and arguing.

There is such a thing as conflict-resolution. That could be tried instead of feminism. 

6 minutes ago, zurew said:

Also, higher divorce rate can stem from a million other things than feminism.

I'm telling you what it is. Not what it 'could be'. 

6 minutes ago, zurew said:

Why would it be dysfunctional or unsustainable?

Women are not built to be 'independent'. They need male protection to be in their feminine. That's their natural state. When that's your reality and you choose to hate on men, that's dysfunctional. And unsustainable. 

[DocWatts]

14 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

 wish such a Hyper masculine feminist woman was never my mother. She ruined so many lives with her useless pride and ambition that brought misery and pain. We were her sacrificial Lamb. 

I feel very good around hyper feminine women who don't spew out feminist garbage 24/7. I feel healed and peaceful around them. My anger calms down and I feel a certain joy. 

Feminism is cancer and I saw this cancer growing up.

I don't speak without cause or experience. 

 

On 9/23/2022 at 8:42 PM, Tyler Robinson said:

 

First off thanks for sharing that; it's understandable why a reasonable person would develop a shadow around aspects of SD-Green under those circumstances.

But I would also suggest that our life experience, while invaluable, also bias the hell out of us, and cause us to overgeneralize. Especially if those life experiences were negative and happened at a formative time in our lives.

Similiar to how a person who grew up and spent a lot of time around around highly misogynistic men might come to an untrue generalization that all men are pigs. Or that a person who grew up in an inner city ghetto with a high crime rate might develop racist attitudes and beliefs as a result of their negative experiences.

From an epistemic perspective, something can be confirmation of our direct experience and still be wrong or highly partial because of our biases and limited sample size. A person who claims that most men are misogynistic assholes may be accurate to a person's limited life experience, but not generalizable to society at large.

Prejudices are formed for reasons that make sense, at least from a highly limited and partial point of view, after all.

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by DocWatts

[zurew]

8 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I've been the victim of a divorce as a child. Don't tell me it's not bad. 

Okay, lets test this idea then. Lets say you have a loving mother and you have an everyday drunk father who beats you and your mother every day when he gets home from work.

Do you still say that the idea of divorce is so unbelievably bad?

 

8 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

It is man-hating at its core. It's not healthy. 

How is it man-hating at its core? 

8 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

It's very easy to lie. 

So you are suggesting that there is no women on Earth, who would consider herself as a feminist and who is married?

8 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

There is such a thing as conflict-resolution.

Thats not always possible, especially when the two parent are not compatible at all. There are many many cases where its better to divorce compared to trying to make the relationship longer and make everything even worse for yourself and for the kid(s) as well. You will become even more emotionally attached and the ability to divorce will be lesser and lesser.

8 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I'm telling you what it is. Not what it 'could be'. 

You are not telling what it is, you are telling what you assume it is.

8 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Women are not built to be 'independent'. They need male protection to be in their feminine. That's their natural state.

Thats a built in assumption you have.  Not all female need male protection, and what do you mean by male protection here?

Lets dig into this then. What do you need to be built for independence?

8 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

That's their natural state.

This is not always true, I have seen many woman who were more masculine in their childhood than guys.

Edited September 28, 2022 by zurew

[mr_engineer]

Just now, zurew said:

Okay, lets test this idea then. Lets say you have a loving mother and you have an everyday drunk father who beats you and your mother every day when he gets home from work.

Do you still say that the idea of divorce is so unbelievably bad?

The two don't go together. A loving woman will know her value, she will not go for a dysfunctional man. She will choose a good man. 

If she's calling herself a 'loving mother' in this situation, she's calling codependency 'love'. And, she will have another part of her that'll hate men for being 'bad'. But, because that's her idea of men, that's what she'll be willing to put up with. 

Then, when the divorce happens, feminism will give her an amazing way of rationalizing how all men are evil. Feminism is responsible for this cycle continuing. And this has to stop. 

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

How is it man-hating at its core? 

Go to jezebel.com. You'll see. 

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

So you are suggesting that there is no women on Earth, who would consider herself as a feminist and who is married?

You said 'happily married'. They can be married, sure, but because they're so 'independent', they have no role for the man in their life. That cannot go well for them. 

3 minutes ago, zurew said:

Thats not always possible, especially when the two parent are not compatable at all. There are many many cases where its better to divorce compared to trying to make the relationship longer and make everything even worse for yourself and for the kid(s) as well. You will become even more emotionally attached and the ability to divorce will be lesser and lesser.

Why is this being idealized, though?! Feminism idealizes single-motherhood because 'all men are evil'. 

4 minutes ago, zurew said:

Thats a built is assumption you have.  Not all female need male protection, and what do you mean by male protection here?

Lets dig into this then. What do you need to be built for independence?

You are challenging the OP right now. Read the OP. Look at the struggles of 'independent women'. And look at how, instead of taking responsibility for it and seeing that 'independence' is the problem, how they blame it all on men and 'the patriarchy'. It's sad, honestly. 

And, nobody is built for independence. Interdependence is the human reality, no matter who you are. Especially women and children. 

6 minutes ago, zurew said:

This is not always true, I have seen many woman who were more masculine in their childhood than guys.

That's due to feminist conditioning. It's not actually natural. 

[Tyler Robinson]

17 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

First off thanks for sharing that; it's understandable why a reasonable person would develop a shadow around aspects of SD-Green under those circumstances.

But I would also suggest that our life experience, while invaluable, also bias the hell out of us, and cause us to overgeneralize. Especially if those life experiences were negative and happened at a formative time in our lives.

Similiar to how a person who grew up and spent a lot of time around around highly misogynistic men might come to an untrue generalization that all men are pigs. Or that a person who grew up in an inner city ghetto with a high crime rate might develop racist attitudes and beliefs as a result of their negative experiences.

From an epistemic perspective, something can be confirmation of our direct experience and still be wrong or highly partial because of our biases and limited sample size. A person who claims that most men are misogynistic assholes may be accurate to a person's limited life experience, but not generalizable to society at large.

Prejudices are formed for reasons that make sense, at least from a highly limited and partial point of view, after all.

 

I'm not trying to generalize. I'm aware that not everyone is the way I'm describing. Yet there's always a certain grain of truth to every prejudice. It's still prejudice though. But I can't negate the experiences of a few in favor of a larger group. Those few people and their experiences still matter and count. 

[mr_engineer]

All of you who are players, you will love feminism. Cuz feminist women will be more likely to be up for casual sex. Cuz they want to be 'independent'. Which is understandable. 

You'll really see the problems with it when you try to make a relationship work. There, her 'independence' will really get in your way. And you will struggle to take charge of the relationship long-term as a result of it. Not because it's your fault, because 'taking the lead in the relationship is sexist'. Have fun trying to make that work!! 

[zurew]

5 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

A loving woman will know her value, she will not go for a dysfunctional man. She will choose a good man.

Surely this hypothetical mother wanted a dysfunctional man for herself, right? - most of the time it doesn't go this way, at the start everything is good, and after some time the relationship can radically decline and people can change a lot.

7 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

they have no role for the man in their life.

Depends on how masculine women we are talking about, not all feminists are highly masculine, sure they generally more masculine than other women, however, they are not necessarily highly masculine.

But lets assume most of them are highly masculine. They can find themselves feminine men and they can live happily or there are other relationship dynamics as well that could work, the traditional is just one.

9 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Feminism idealizes single-motherhood because 'all men are evil'

I don't think feminism entails misandry, again, not all feminist hold the idea, that 'all men are evil' or that men are at fault for everything.

13 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

That's due to feminist conditioning. It's not actually natural. 

Women has the capacity to be masculine just as men. Its natural to have that capacity, so why is it unnatural to explore that part of yourself or to express that part of yourself?

[DocWatts]

17 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

It's still prejudice though. But I can't negate the experiences of a few in favor of a larger group. Those few people and their experiences still matter and count. 

I agree, and that's why we need to work towards building a society where everyone has opportunities to self actualize, live authentically, and heal from their trauma.

But I also think that third wave feminism has positive aspects you're not seeing. Not forcing everyone in society (including trans and non-binary folks) to confirm to gender roles that they're not comfortable with helps those individuals live a life of dignity and authenticity. Those people are also part of the few whose experiences count.

Edited September 28, 2022 by DocWatts

[mr_engineer]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

Depends on how masculine women we are talking about, not all feminists are highly masculine, sure they generally more masculine than other women, however, they are not necessarily highly masculine.

But lets assume most of them are highly masculine. They can find themselves feminine men and they can live happily or there are other relationship dynamics as well that could work, the traditional is just one.

They'll be fine with a feminine man if their 'masculinity' is natural. That's not the reality with a lot of them. A lot of them are naturally feminine. But, because they have daddy-issues, they become feminists. And then, they learn the feminist 'masculinity' that only applies to women, by the way. When men do that, they're seen as 'little bitches'. 

And don't ignore the fact that most women have a physical disadvantage to most men. And most women have a very different emotional-response to most men. Men's way of creating safety is by being logical, factually oriented and battling it. Whereas, women rely on people to keep them safe and protect them. That's how our biological response to threat/danger has evolved. 

5 minutes ago, zurew said:

I don't think feminism entails misandry, again, not all feminist hold the idea, that 'all men are evil' or that men are at fault for everything.

Feminism does hold the idea, though, that masculinity and femininity are socialized into you. That's not true. And, they then demonize the masculine and lionize the feminine. Without realizing that they're being the definition of masculine! And this repels men. 

6 minutes ago, zurew said:

Women has the capacity to be masculine just as men. Its natural to have that capacity, so why is it unnatural to explore that part of yourself or to express that part of yourself?

It's all good and fine when you're a child or a young adult. But, as you grow up, you start caring about the long-term and the kind of life you want to live. And then, if you make choices based on feminist conditioning, your life typically goes to shit. Man or woman. 

[zurew]

11 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Feminism does hold the idea, though, that masculinity and femininity are socialized into you. That's not true.

If you totally reject this idea, then this contradicts your whole argument againts feminism.

In this discussion masculinity and femininity only means a category, where you can find a set of behaviour expressions. Basically, both masculinity and femininity is about a way you act in the world, so they are learnable.

 

18 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Men's way of creating safety is by being logical, factually oriented and battling it. Whereas, women rely on people to keep them safe and protect them. That's how our biological response to threat/danger has evolved. 

I would switch the word men with the word masculine and I would switch the word women with the word feminine. The reason for that, is because it describes our society much better, and it holds less dogma.

21 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

And don't ignore the fact that most women have a physical disadvantage to most men. And most women have a very different emotional-response to most men.

Yes, I agree, but we are not talking about most men or most women. We are talking about a specific set of man and women (feminists).

[something_else]

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

So, you say that rising divorce-rates and children growing up without both parents is a good thing?! 

Do you know what happens when a 5-year-old loses a parent?! Say, their father?! 

I didn't say they were a good thing, I said they were not inherent to feminism.

And anyway, I'd rather grow up with separated parents (I actually did) rather than parents who hate each others' guts and argue around me 24/7.

Quote

In the past 10 years, I've seen the opposite. 

In what contexts? My mother is a successful and independent woman in a male-dominated field who has frequently been on the receiving end of sexism, chauvinism, and just general dickheadedness from many of the men she works with because of her independent and driven nature.

Your sense of what happens in the world is possibly based too much on what you read online.

I am trying to understand what role you think women should play in the world. So I will ask you that. In your perfect world, what role should women play?

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by something_else