Feminism makes women more masculine... Umm...do you agree?

[Tyler Robinson]

Just now, Ethan1 said:

Overly sensitive and hystrionic personality disorders can be draining. 

Still on the other side of the coin of apathetic emotionally blunted people

 Same thing. 

You're right on that one. 

[Ethan1]

Thanks 

[Tyler Robinson]

1 hour ago, KH2 said:

As with almost everything else, this is, on a fundamental level, a struggle between modernism vs. naturalism. The way things used to be vs. how things are now. More flexible ways of defining ideas and concepts vs. need for a more rigidly defined ideas and concepts. The appeal for novelty vs. The appeal for what's natural, what used to be. Almost all philosophies and ideologies stem, or can be related to these 2 ways of thinking.

The important thing is to determine good sides and bad sides of both approaches, and structure society/live personal lives accordingly. Which is more complex than it seems. How do you determine the exact point at which ideology like feminism goes too far, and who gets to determine it?

In order to determine which philosophy or ideology is better, you have to focus on the outcome. So far feminism has benefitted women  in terms of financial independence. Reducing dependency on male partner, less cases of abuse. 

But the other negative outcomes of feminism include 

- high divorce rates 

- less dating opportunities for men 

- single motherhood

-  women turning to prostitution and glorified sex work 

- hatred for men 

- pressure of work 

- bad health 

- less focus / attention on kids 

- obesity 

- incompetent masculine women as bosses who make decisions based on emotions and lack of fair leadership 

- too much Masculinity and loss of feminine compassion and sensitivity. Masculine oriented stage Orange society 

- women paying too much focus on career, neglecting husband and kids. 

- emasculation of men 

 

 

 

[Tyler Robinson]

@KH2 now... I also have an alternate theory and I don't know how much you would agree on this, but this is just my  speculation off the top of my head. 

I think feminism demands that women work harder and this generates competition among women for the limited resources they're competing for. Whenever you put Darwinion survival of the fittest into motion, it exclusively brings out the psychopath in most, because those who want to survive have to invent psychopathic strategies to push others down the food chain so they can climb on top. (especially the ones who are weak), this will actually more generate and attract psychopathic women to succeed at meeting opportunities and thus succeed at survival, previously such psychopathy was only limited to fooling the husband to get more money, but now this psychopathy will spread to wider society, in the workplace and every part of the food chain and thus we will see a higher proportion of psychopath mothers and women in the future. That's a disaster for the moral spiritual fabric of the society because it  votes vulnerable women out. 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Tyler Robinson

[Jacob Morres]

7 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

 

Yet, I do see its downsides as well. 

 

Yes toxic woke is like it replaces the old toxic standard with a new one. 

Traditional gender roles were challenged because it places an expectation of men and women to behave a certain way - but really people are fluid . But they're forced to behave in certain ways even when it's not authentic to them 

Then feminism comes along and is like damn this shit sucked why must a women just sit around, cook and clean (among many other expectations)!! Fuck gender roles!

But the problem with some strong progressives is that they create New gender roles-> so some create it by saying that women must go out and work! 

But really what needs to happen is that people should be free to do as they please. If they want to work, work. If they don't want to, don't work. They're not less of a woman or person either way, just following their bliss and what feels right 

But this isn't all progressives. I'd say only 30% of the left represents the more toxic form of feminism. Dont quote be on that. 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Jacob Morres

[Tyler Robinson]

15 minutes ago, Jacob Morres said:

But really what needs to happen is that people should be free to do as they please. If they want to work, work. If they don't want to, don't work. They're not less of a woman or person either way, just following their bliss and what feels right 

That's true but feminism doesn't allow that. It demonizes women who don't want to succumb to its pressures or expectations. 

For example if I said to a feminist that I don't want to work in the military she would give me a long ass talk on how I don't represent strong women, essentially shaming me for making my own choices. 

That's why I pointed out how feminism caricatures women into this "strong independent masculine" stereotype which every woman is supposed to aspire to or else she is considered weak. I think this is dangerous stereotyping that hurts women. It doesn't liberate women. This toxicity impacts their health. 

 

[Jannes]

7 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

First of all, masculinity and femininity can only be defined in terms of each other. For example, if the masculine is dominant, the feminine is submissive. If the masculine is physical, the feminine is spiritual. If the masculine is the giver, the feminine is the receiver. If the masculine is the leader, the feminine is the follower. If the masculine is the rule-setter, the feminine is the rule-keeper. None of these are hard-and-fast rules, you pick the qualities of the role you want in your life, depending on who you are and where you fit in. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

A woman is still a woman even without a man. 

My own hormones are enough to guide me on how I should feel as a woman. I never needed a man to tell me. For example my own body tells me that curves look good on me. If a man told me that he doesn't like curves, it wouldn't matter. I would still have what makes me feel and look good as a woman. 

You think as though women are robots who are shaped into women by men.. This is a patriarchal thought. 

Super interesting thread so far.

 I wanted to comment here:

I think mr_engineer takes a spiritual approach in explaining what male/female are. For example you don’t know what big is without the contrast of small. You don’t know what strong is without the contrast of weak. You don’t know what warm is without the contrast of cold. You don’t know what a female is without the contrast of a male. It’s just that these thoughts of male and female are just so baked into our psyche that we can’t unsee them. So when you say I am still a women even without the presence of a men. Yeah not direct presence but unconsciously the contrast to a men is still there. 
You might say that even if you never heard about male and female you would still be a female because you have a female body and female hormones. But seriously what makes curves and breasts "femaleish“. Female isn’t printed on your breasts it’s a concept that you hold to make sense of reality. Or there is nothing "maleish“ about growing a beard and cutting wood if you remove all concepts.

 

 

[Jannes]

I feel like everything has trade offs and so does modern feminism. I hope that at one point there is just a turning point where it is so clear for everyone that yes females can be just as hard working as men and yes men can be just as emotional as women. So lets just do what makes us happy without having to prove anything anymore. 
 

The "strong female“ isn’t only strongly demanded by feminism but sometimes in terribly unrealistic ways which is actually disempowering. This is a picture of an Asterix and Obelix Comic which I read some time ago. It seems like they want to show that they encourage females so they changed history and created a village where the social structure is that there are female warriors and men who stay home and take care of cooking and the kids. I told that to a young feminist and she said that that’s a great idea to implement ??. And I see that in all kinds of shows nowadays where there are females who are made artificially stronger then they actually are just so the show stays on the liberal train. I miss the old days when actually strong female characters like Princess Leia from Star Wars were involved and I am only 23 ?. These "strong female“ characters nowadays are disempowering to females because they send the message that you can only be a strong female character with physical strength and not with female traits. So they make femininity look weak and they also show an unrealistic picture of female strength in movies which doesn’t reflect our natural abilities. I want to see a film with two tough women overpowering a strong men. That would actually be empowering because that would be real. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Jannes

[zurew]

"Feminism makes women more masculine... Umm...do you agree?" I would say that feminism emerged, because women got more masculine not the other way around, although its possible, that the ideology itself makes women more masculine.

[Yog]

It's a recent development, looking at it from a psycho-historical perspective.

It will take time for it to get integrated. Right now it's quite reactive and disintegrated.

This goes both for femininity in men and masculinity in women.

As Jung has said, if it's disintegrated, then it's unconscious, if it's unconscious then it will possess people. So these days, you are more likely to see anima-possessed men and animus-possessed women.

This is not ruining the case that women could become more masculine in a healthy way, it's just saying what we get to see in society, will most likely be of an unconscious and disintegrated nature.

So yes, you'll get women that are acting like men in order to be more free or whole and in the process, ironically stomp their femininity. It's a perk you get from being possessed.

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Yog

[Jacob Morres]

8 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

That's true but feminism doesn't allow that. It demonizes women who don't want to succumb to its pressures or expectations. 

Hehe this is the reason why feminism even exists in the first place. Do u see the negatives of gender roles? 

Women should be X, men should be Y and it demonizes the person who doesn't want to live up to those expectations 

 

"That's why I pointed out how feminism caricatures women into this "strong independent masculine" stereotype which every woman is supposed to aspire to or else she is considered weak"

Yeah, and This is one issue that traditional gender roles had toward men. Men are expected to be strong independent or masculine or they're demonized/dehumanized for being beta, weak etc.

I agree with you that feminism over corrected in some aspects and  strongly dislike some forms of feminism but I don't think it's the core of feminism. At its core feminism to me is allowing freedom for all ppl freedom without expectations. Sort of like freedom of religion in USA (in theory at least) . 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Jacob Morres

[Lila9]

I'm gratful for feminism. I see what is happening in countries where women rights aren't that trivial like in my country and I feel sorry for those women, I feel their pain. I kiss the air of my country merely because it allows me to do almost whatever I want as a woman. Of course there are some social expectations like to get married, have children while looking like an instagram model, but I don't have to do that and there will be no life threatening consequences if I choose to not do that. Of course there are still incels and women haters and awful men who see women as sex objects only, but at least I have the option to avoid them and complain about them and to get some help if they harass me.

 

Of course there are still areas that have to be worked on in relation to equality, feminism is still highly needed.

But, I understand that it can be frustrating when some feminists act in a masculine way, and expect other women to act in a same way as if it's more superior. Some of them even shame women who express more feminine traits in certain situations or choose more traditional life style. It might come with a good intention to help those women but it also might come with dark intention to feel more superior to other women which is a kind of disguised misogyny. There are also misogynistic women who hide behind feminism, or narcissists, masculine and too dominant women who use feminism as an excuse for their shitty behavior.

 

On the other hand there are feminist circles that are very balanced and are very supportive of femininity and talk about things like women sexuality, mutual support, acceptance of the self and of other women, self development and self love, hobbies, compassion to animals and to the environment, trauma healing, LGBT issues, how to have healthy relationships with men etc

In fact, most of the feminists are pretty intelligent, feminine and balanced from my experience, they deeply care about making this world a better place for women, and all the hate they receive from mediocre people don't stop them.

I mostly encounter masculine women who shit on other women among those who don't define themselves as feminists per se, but it's only my observation. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Lila9

[ZzzleepingBear]

I think feminism is one of the main ingredients baked into capitalism and that is probably the biggest part in the disintegration of what we know as traditional roles. It's mainly about a much higher living cost to having a partner who doesn't work in todays society in general.

[Javfly33]

22 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

 

I don't like this part of feminism. 

I don't like the emasculation of men and the masculation of women.. 

I don't wanna see more and more women turning up looking like men. 

Was this too outrageous to put out there? 

 

I know this can piss off some woke gentiles. But facts = facts. 

 

You want to awake to the bullshit of new-age modern gurus like David Deida and similar guys come up with this "masculine/energy" stuff?

Guess what, the real difference between a man and a woman its their fu**** genitals.

The perfect human being is that one with a 50% masculinity and 50% femininity. Only their genitals change.

Of course this is idealistic at this point, but humanity is evolving into this direction. To the fall of all differences in energy (masculine-feminine) leaving only genitals as difference, in order to reproduce.

[Leo Gura]

You can have feminism and still be deeply feminine.

Learn to walk and chew gum at the same time

[Bobby_2021]

These days you can have a dick and still be a woman. So being a feminist and being feminine is that not big of a deal. 

[mr_engineer]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You can have feminism and still be deeply feminine.

Learn to walk and chew gum at the same time

In theory, you can. And, on an individual level. It's like saying 'You can escape wage-slavery' or 'You can become a model' or 'You can win an Olympic gold-medal' or 'You can become a billionaire'. You can, on an individual level. But, everyone can't. 

On a practical level, the reality of feminism as a movement is that it suppresses masculine and feminine nature. I know, you're going to quote ten books of theory as to how that's not what it's about. But, this is what it's practically doing. 

Edited September 25, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Tyler Robinson]

54 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

On a practical level, the reality of feminism as a movement is that it suppresses masculine and feminine nature. I know, you're going to quote ten books of theory as to how that's not what it's about. But, this is what it's practically doing. 

This is true. 

 

[Tyler Robinson]

12 hours ago, Jacob Morres said:

At its core feminism to me is allowing freedom for all ppl freedom without expectations.

This definition is created in your mind. Feminist insult men everyday for their strength. They feel threatened by strong independent men but at the same time they have no mercy for weak men 

The whole ideology is based on acquisition of power. How will a powerful person admire someone who is weak? If you think traditional gender roles expect men to be strong, then you are in for a huge surprise, a feminist will humiliate you if you didn't act chivalrous and at the same time insult you if you implied that she needs help. Feminists can be very condescending and contradictory. 

You have some baked ideas in your mind regarding feminism. You have no clue how feminists deal with divorce. They expect the man to give away all his hard earned money to the wife without having an access to his own kids, custody is exclusively given to the woman and the man is treated like a sperm donor. I guess you'll be happy when your independent feminist wife divorces you, robs you of your money and peace of mind in court and relentlessly battles against you so you'll not have any peace of mind left, then let's talk about allowing people freedom without expectations. You have zero idea of practical feminism and how it ruins men and families. 

 

[Ethan1]

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Ethan1