Unpopular opinion: No more voting

[Kksd74628]

@zurew

Which life would you choose.

A: Beautiful happy life (Btw this is overall better)

B: Sadder life, but with more development. (This is overall worse)

[Danioover9000]

@zurew @Kksd74628  Surrender your minds to mine, inside my hive mind, merge all selves into mine for all time, so that I rule the entire globe, no free lotions for Will, nor notions of determinism, this isn't science fiction, it's the next addition to the next evolution of the best consciousness, that's me, nesting with/without for all eternity, a high five matrix mind trick and treating the reeds that're lost once ago, to fold into me all over. Complete and total morphogenesis, brothers and sisters, BEHOLD! MATRIX RELOADED! 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Danioover9000

[zurew]

@Kksd74628 Analyzing both of those choices from multiple angles, I would still choose development.

If we would start to optimize everything for our development, we would eventually end up in a place, where everyone is developed asf and everyone is enlightened. That place and world sounds much better to me, because there isn't just happiness, but much more.

[Carl-Richard]

On 19.9.2022 at 3:08 PM, Kksd74628 said:

Voting gives people false sense of control over decision making about political, environmental and sociological topics.

Self-efficacy is fundamental to living a healthy life.

[Kksd74628]

@zurew

That just shows that you didn't understand the question. I agree that development is important part to be happy, but you should see that my question was imaginary. In the scenario, that I made up, the point was that you either get development or happiness. Don't argue if you get happiness from development or vice versa, because that wasn't in the question in the first place. The whole question is just about if you could chooce only one which one you'd choose happiness or development. That's an easy question if you don't think it too complicatedly. I am trying to guide you to understand my perspective.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Kksd74628

[Kksd74628]

@Carl-Richard

What do you mean by self-efficacy and how does it relate to the topic?

[zurew]

33 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

I am trying to guide you to understand my perspective.

I understand your perspective, thats why I know the limitations and the tradeoff aswell, and I dont agree with it.

33 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

which one you'd choose happiness or development.

I would still go with development, even if I would get less happiness at the end of the day.

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by zurew

[Kksd74628]

@zurew

Fine, let's make it even easier for you. If you'd live only for 1 minute, would you choose to make it the best experience possible or to read some book to gain development on any choosen topic.

[zurew]

8 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

@zurew

Fine, let's make it even easier for you.

Calm it down, because your head is way too up in your ass right now.

8 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

If you'd live only for 1 minute, would you choose to make it the best experience possible or to read some book to gain development on any choosen topic.

Would choose happiness, but right now we are way too fucking removed from reality and from politics. 

We never base our core values on the ground,  that we will only live 1 minutes long. Thats distorts everything and that question makes long term thinking and planning and the big picture,system thinking worthless.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Kksd74628 said:

@Carl-Richard

What do you mean by self-efficacy and how does it relate to the topic?

Self-efficacy in a general sense is about the extent to which you believe you have control over your life. Removing voting is one way of undermining that belief, and it has consequences for your psychological health.

[Kksd74628]

@zurew

So now we agree that happiness/love is the thing that we both try to have, but you wanted to make sure that I understand that development plays key role in that thing, I agree. Now we get back to where we started and also you see why I asked that imaginary question. The point was to show you that whatever makes people the most happy in the big picture should be correct decision. So now you also see why my statement - IF taking voting away WOULD make our society the most loving and the happiest that should be the correct decision - was actually right. What we are left is question would it actually make us the most loving and the happiest. 

So maybe you start to see that we aren't so different like it has maybe looked from our conversations in this forum. The difference is that I always try to break things down to little things until we agree on the little things and then we can combine those parts to the main point until we agree on it too. That's how tier 2 mature discussion looks like to me. So the key insight that you could have is that we actually don't dissagree on things, but my way of expressing myself is a little different from normal people you see in this forum or almost anywhere. It takes time to get me, be patient my friend .

Love yo <3

[Kksd74628]

@Carl-Richard

I see how that could be, but I think there are other things which play bigger role in that thing you described such as having scheduled routine, pushing yourself and seeing that you're capable and also dealing with your traumas that try to make you believe otherwise. So I'd say that if what you said would be the only reason not to take voting away I'd say that let's fix people's problems other way and also take voting away. So there are 3 agendas that I have in this thread. To make people more openminded to weird thought games, teach people how to break down complicated subjects and one is for me to see what are all the main points why voting is important.

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Kksd74628 said:

@Carl-Richard

I see how that could be, but I think there are other things which play bigger role in that thing you described such as having scheduled routine, pushing yourself and seeing that you're capable and also dealing with your traumas that try to make you believe otherwise. So I'd say that if what you said would be the only reason not to take voting away I'd say that let's fix people's problems other way and also take voting away.

It's not the only reason. I just mentioned something which hasn't already been mentioned.

I think removing democracy requires a certain narcissism; the belief that you've got everything figured out, and that everybody else should follow suit. Even if it were the case that you actually got things figured out, what if I don't want that? Who are you to say how I should live my life?

What if instead of "system thinking, important models and morality", you said "the Bible" or "the Quran"? To a normal citizen who has no grasp of these things, there is nothing that will stop them from viewing you like the next Hitler or Stalin.

[zurew]

@Kksd74628 No, we don't agree. It only seems that we agree, because you give me a question, where the only rational option is to choose happiness, but that doesn't mean, that hierarchically I hold happiness at the highest level, it only means that at that super isolated case, I would choose happiness. Also, what valuesystem I hold for myself could be slightly or vastly different from what I would want a society to have (because of numerous reasons). - But this part isn't relevant, for the sake of the argument, I can take your values for granted.

Here is a relevant question for you: Structurally what benefits your system has compared to a democractic system. This is the only thing thats relevant here and of course the cons as well.

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by zurew

[Kksd74628]

@Carl-Richard

Yeah, but the problem you guys are having is that you don't see that I am not trying to break democracy and build weird totalitarian society, but I am actually trying to make it better. Maybe taking voting away would be good or maybe it wouldn't but we can't say that for sure without first having proper conversation about it like we are trying to have right now. Point of thinking from extreme perspectives is that it reveals usually biases, traumas or something else. That's excatly the same thing Leo did with his pedophile example. Let's not go deeper in it in that thread though and I'll give my own take on it later.

Basically in the most basic form I am trying to make filter which gives little advatage for people who actually understand the subject which in this case is system thinking, how to lead country and how to think and express oneself holistically. I honestly think that - giving this little advantage for people who study the thing they're going to talk about - is going to have positive impact on our society in a big picture. It's like teaching in school requires going through the learning process first. You can't teach if you don't know what you're teaching. Same goes that you can't impact society positively if you don't know what is going to impact it positively.

That's also why people's idea of what makes society better doesn't really matter, because they don't know it. To know it we need to make tests, studies and scientific experiments. We need to study people better what they want in average and what actually makes them the happiest. When we start to have better idea of that, we can the first time start making proper politics for everyone. That's what's required to move from tier 1 to tier 2 type of political decision making.

[Kksd74628]

@zurew

14 minutes ago, zurew said:

Structurally what benefits your system has compared to a democractic system?

I am going to answer to this question after you explain to me that how you could have any other value in top of your value hierarchy than love, happiness or peace of mind.

[zurew]

21 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

I am going to answer to this question after you explain to me that how you could have any other value in top of your value hierarchy than love, happiness or peace of mind.

That will derail this thread even more, and its not relevant to this specific discussion. Lets focus back to the main topic and lets see your reasoning why you think, your system is structurally better to a democratic system.

I already said, that I am willing to work with happiness for the sake of the argument.

Edited September 21, 2022 by zurew

[Razard86]

18 minutes ago, zurew said:

@Kksd74628 No, we don't agree. It only seems that we agree, because you give me a question, where the only rational option is to choose happiness, but that doesn't mean, that hierarchically I hold happiness at the highest level, it only means that at that super isolated case, I would choose happiness. Also, what valuesystem I hold for myself could be slightly or vastly different from what I would want a society to have (because of numerous reasons). - But this part isn't relevant, for the sake of the argument, I can take your values for granted.

Here is a relevant question for you: Structurally what benefits your system has compared to a democractic system. This is the only thing thats relevant here and of course the cons as well.

 

One day you will outgrow debating lol. Have you not noticed no matter how many good points you gave....he just kept running in circles? Sometimes...you got to know when it ain't worth your time.

[Carl-Richard]

@Kksd74628

I can't imagine a less Tier 2 thing than removing voting. Voting is a cornerstone of democracy in the world, and democracy is a cornerstone of the Tier 2 project.

Like Jamie Wheal says, the conditions for Game B (Tier 2) were actually set with the founding fathers. They were just never properly implemented. "We're are not here to honor the dead, we're here to re-commit to the promise."

 

[Kksd74628]

@zurew

I can't continue on it bacause that is the backbone of any deep conversation. If we don't even have same direction where we're trying to go with our car I can't show you why my path would be better than yours, because it wouldn't because it would just lead you somewhere you don't want to go. So you have to explain that thing I asked from you or we can't go further with this discussion. I aknowledge that otherwise it would just circle around without any progress. So what's your take on my question?