There's no such thing as an "I" lmao.

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@RMQualtrough You are conflating self with I. I is Absolute but self is finite and can change. I is not a character. Self is the character. You can lose the self but you cannot lose the I. I is not an entity per se, I is pure Infinity, the Godhead.

^This....when all selves are combined.....it becomes no self....which is the ultimate self or as he says...I. What is the I? Awareness. 

Awareness is what all expression springs forth from. Without awareness...you couldn't even create a character. Without awareness...there wouldn't be a reality...you don't even realize what you are denying... You are denying direct experience...itself. 

[Razard86]

You know...I get it....you need that drawing...to help you map it...yes there is no observer...only the observed. The observer and observed distinction is a false distinction. There is only the observed because both the screen and the happenings are one. 

The problem with your picture though....is you deny the human...as part of the scene. You are better off drawing a first person drawing...and saying the screen and the stuff on the screen...are the same. 

[RMQualtrough]

45 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@RMQualtrough I think what you are basically saying is Being is prior to knowing and not knowing is Truth.   Am I correct?

Being is the thing that is. Red is red, blue is blue, the visual image of a dog we see is the image, the sound of a tree falling in a forest is the sound of a tree falling in a forest.

Red is never seen. Blue is never seen. Images of dogs are never seen. The sound of trees falling is never heard.

The image of red, blue, and dog, stand alone unobserved. They are not "seen" or "observed" ever, never ever, yet they appear, because what they are is the very thing itself. It is what they ARE. There is nothing to the appearance but their appearance. There is never a ghost in the shell seeing them. Nobody has ever heard a tree fall and they never could. The tree falling sound is unto itself, when """you""" hear it, the idea that you are hearing it is another appearance. That is the ego. There is NEVER a you hearing the sound. There is the sound. The sound is the sound. And the idea a you entity is hearing it is the idea a you entity is hearing it.

Red and images of dogs and sounds of pianos and the idea of "I am hearing this sound" or "I am" or "God" are ALL appearances of reality, and are all standing completely utterly alone as the very thing itself.

You have never had a thought. Thoughts ARE. There is no "you" entity involved. Ever. Only the idea "I am thinking X" etc. The "I" is a thought. I is subsequent to the fact of being.

Literally take an image of a flower or whatever, and completely delete the idea of yourself from it. But leave the image. Completely eradicate the idea there is a person back "here" seeing a flower out there. Or even that the out there is really here (and intertwined with the imaginary creature placed "here").

"Out there" does not exist. Spatial dimension creates the perceived separation, but it's unitive like dreamscapes. There also isn't a you in any dream. The dream mountain is the dream mountain, the perception of distance is the perception of distance, thoughts are never thought by anybody.

Everything is the very thing itself.

There is no out there to "collapse" into an in here. It's impossible to do because there ISN'T an out there and in here to collapse together. So you literally cannot do it. You can eradicate the sensation of space which is one of the things which appear.

[RMQualtrough]

You're all psychonaut people yeah? Or meditating people w.e... Put in some in-ear earbuds, and focus on the LOCATION of the sound.

This is really easy on drugs btw, usually drug trips outright cause this.

But you should soon hear the music EVERYWHERE. Yet also nowhere because whenever you try to pinpoint a location, you find it is not actually located there... You can take the entire soundstage and move it around your head. You can make it so you feel like the music is behind you, on top of your skull, in front of you. You can literally move it around anywhere in perception, so you are not located in any 360 degree relation to it.

Now notice sight. You see how hard it is to do the same with sight? You can't make it feel like the sight is happening behind you, or on top of your skull etc. Not like you can with music. You can force yourself to think worded thoughts that it's behind you or w.e... But nah, try to do exactly the same thing with sight as with sound. Try to completely lose your 360 degree positioning in the sight.

If anyone has never ever experienced that before, it will be very overpowering if you pull that off. Because the only way to lose the 360 degree position in relation to sight is to completely erase the idea of yourself from it.

And I THINK then you will see what I am trying to mean. Because it follows naturally.

Human spatial positioning is like, 99% based on vision + tactile sense, usually both work together hence how you feel to end at the edge of the image of your arms you see right now...... Losing body feeling causes the feel of infinity/sizelezsness, but not necessarily loss of 360 degree positioning visually. E.g. even on Salvia, when everything goes 2D, there is STILL a sense of visual space. And I think that's what causes the psychotic laughter, because your brain literally cannot comprehend it, as everything is totally 2D yet it is sensing spatial separation. So it just loops over itself and goes psychotic.

Edited September 19, 2022 by RMQualtrough

[Razard86]

Here is a better example... 

Everything in this picture....is one being. So the "human" holding the gun, along with all the "others"

are the SAME being. You don't need to put an x on that which observes....that which observes and the observed...are the same.

Its like looking in a mirror, seeing a different expression and thinking it is someone else. But since you are all expressions currently identifying with one expression you get fooled. There is only one being that exists....expressing itself in different forms. 

There is no controller, thoughts just happen, action just happens, but awareness can disconnect itself and fool itself into thinking it is acting separate. 

[RMQualtrough]

7 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Here is a better example... 

Everything in this picture....is one being. So the "human" holding the gun, along with all the "others"

are the SAME being. You don't need to put an x on that which observes....that which observes and the observed...are the same.

Its like looking in a mirror, seeing a different expression and thinking it is someone else. But since you are all expressions currently identifying with one expression you get fooled. There is only one being that exists....expressing itself in different forms. 

There is no controller, thoughts just happen, action just happens, but awareness can disconnect itself and fool itself into thinking it is acting separate. 

I'm not trying to put an X on the body of the human or w.e. it's a representation of first person perception.

And that image there, I like the 2D drawings because you see how that image, despite being flat, still feels like you are back "here" inside the dude's skull, while the building is over "there".

I just like my little sketch, I want to cause the killing off of the sense of any relative spatial positioning in people. No foreground or background even on a 2D cartoon as the human mind will bite down and never let go of any possible perceived 3D spatial positioning data.

[Razard86]

3 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

I just like my little sketch, I want to cause the killing off of the sense of any relative spatial positioning in people. No foreground or background even on a 2D cartoon as the human mind will bite down and never let go of any possible perceived 3D spatial positioning data.

That only happens...because you believe that to be true. You create your reality. You can't trick yourself out of your beliefs, the reason I am against your picture....is because it is creating a separation. If you have to place an X over the human looking at the flower to understand that the human is no different than the flower and even have to say...there is no human just a flower...then you still think the human is a person.

I can look at your picture....remove the X and know the human is not seperate from the flower. There is a human and a flower...and in actuality...there is no human and a flower...there is just a scene happening...THE END. The distinction of a flower or human is an imaginary concept created to figure out what is going on. When I slap the human....I have slapped the flower. When I cut the flower...I have cut the human. 

Once you understand they are one....you don't need an X. The X is still a distinction you are making...by saying there is only the flower....you deny a part of the scene....thus making reality....finite. You have turned the observed into a self...and the frame which holds it....not there....even though without the frame....there is no scene.

You cannot trick yourself into awakening...you either get it....or you don't.

[Razard86]

But here is something interesting though....your mindset is good in this respect...if you want to unattach yourself from identification with the body your logical map is actually the way to go. So even though its not a good pointer for understanding the truth....it is actually very good for embodying the truth.

Since our language uses self-reference,,,,which is complete and utter delusion...if you get rid of self reference, and the concept of others and address everything you observe and experience as YOU....then....you could release all attachment with a separate self.

So your drawing is very useful for embodiment....which is really interesting. I noticed even OSHO actually spoke about this before.

I cannot find the video. 

[RMQualtrough]

@Razard86 Honestly the flower is really easy to explain I could show to a random dude at the pub, and this would be the easiest way to show it. My initial post nailed it also. Any random person would understand the meaning in minutes.

3D images make people feel a sense of spatial relativity. Like the tape measure. Instantly looks like I'm inside that dude's skull looking at an enemy soldier 20 feet away. Games are designed that way on purpose, "immersion".

It is the easiest explanation possible to just cross out the I entity with any representation possible. Red is red, and the idea of a you seeing it is just a thought. There's not an ACTUAL I entity back here. What I'm saying cannot be explained any easier IMO. It is THE easiest way for anyone to just be like "oh yeah I know what you're trying to say".

I have legit no idea why you're fixated on me representing the ghost in the shell imaginary "I" with a stick person lol wtf man.

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

Being is the thing that is. Red is red, blue is blue, the visual image of a dog we see is the image, the sound of a tree falling in a forest is the sound of a tree falling in a forest.

Red is never seen. Blue is never seen. Images of dogs are never seen. The sound of trees falling is never heard.

The image of red, blue, and dog, stand alone unobserved. They are not "seen" or "observed" ever, never ever, yet they appear, because what they are is the very thing itself. It is what they ARE. There is nothing to the appearance but their appearance. There is never a ghost in the shell seeing them. Nobody has ever heard a tree fall and they never could. The tree falling sound is unto itself, when """you""" hear it, the idea that you are hearing it is another appearance. That is the ego. There is NEVER a you hearing the sound. There is the sound. The sound is the sound. And the idea a you entity is hearing it is the idea a you entity is hearing it.

Red and images of dogs and sounds of pianos and the idea of "I am hearing this sound" or "I am" or "God" are ALL appearances of reality, and are all standing completely utterly alone as the very thing itself.

You have never had a thought. Thoughts ARE. There is no "you" entity involved. Ever. Only the idea "I am thinking X" etc. The "I" is a thought. I is subsequent to the fact of being.

Literally take an image of a flower or whatever, and completely delete the idea of yourself from it. But leave the image. Completely eradicate the idea there is a person back "here" seeing a flower out there. Or even that the out there is really here (and intertwined with the imaginary creature placed "here").

"Out there" does not exist. Spatial dimension creates the perceived separation, but it's unitive like dreamscapes. There also isn't a you in any dream. The dream mountain is the dream mountain, the perception of distance is the perception of distance, thoughts are never thought by anybody.

Everything is the very thing itself.

There is no out there to "collapse" into an in here. It's impossible to do because there ISN'T an out there and in here to collapse together. So you literally cannot do it. You can eradicate the sensation of space which is one of the things which appear.

@RMQualtrough welcome home.  All that is now left is awakening. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Inliytened1

[SOUL]

The only thing there is is I and everything else is artifact.

[RMQualtrough]

3 hours ago, SOUL said:

The only thing there is is I and everything else is artifact.

You don't mean I, you mean the wordless thing.

"I" is just thought which can echo within that. I I I I I I I I I.

Hm.

Everyone who "awakens" does so into the literally exact same thing. There's no such thing as "awakenings" plural. It's one place and reality people die into again and again and again. Anyone who has a "higher awakening" just didn't actually """awaken""" the previous time.

Why is it so hard for people to understand what same is. Why do they have to think of a little bubble them going back into something like uhm... Like as though them going back pushes a "self" back there such that the wordless thing that is, becomes different in some way because now they are in it. Or their little bubble has merged with it, whatever.

Why can't the general public understand that the self goes away. And the beingness, doesn't change one iota from it. Whether 100000 people awaken into it at once, or if everyone is a robot save you. It never alters.

[axiom]

8 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Without awareness… you don't even realize what you are denying... You are denying direct experience...itself. 

Now you’re getting somewhere

It is not experience. It is appearance.

Edited September 19, 2022 by axiom

[SOUL]

3 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

You don't mean I, you mean the wordless thing.

The body uses an eye to see and awareness uses an I to observe.

It's all wordless things until we use a word to describe it so if you want it to remain wordless then stop talking.

[axiom]

@SOUL

His point is that there is no awareness and no observation.

The word 'I' is almost always pointedly used to describe subject-object relationships. So in the context of infinity it is potentially quite misleading. It's possible it's just a semantic issue, but equally it may be a sign that there is still an apparent 'I' there that thinks it is aware of things and observing things.

Infinity is fine as it is. It needs no 'I' to stake claim to it.

[Razard86]

7 hours ago, axiom said:

Now you’re getting somewhere

It is not experience. It is appearance.

I will saw your arms off with a chainsaw...you let me know how much of an appearance that is. You guys are so lost its hilarious. 

There is no difference between reality and illusion...the whole point of discovering that...is the point!!! Me cutting your arms off is not an appearance.

Pain is not an appearance. You don't see pain you feel it. At the absolute level there is no difference between pain and appearance because it is based on attachment. If I am not attached to the image I won't feel the pain. But appearance and pain are different. In how they are defined. 

Your attachment to something causes pain when you judge what happens to the appearance. So pain is a reaction due to an attachment and a belief in separation. 

Stop all this nonsense that there is no experience, denying experience is denying love. 

[Razard86]

Reality and illusion are one....stop creating a distinction between reality and illusion. Until you drop that...you don't get it!!! It took me two trips two figure this crap out. How are you deep psychonauts still confused??? I don't get it... stop b.sing

Illusion only exists in relation to infinity...because infinity has no seperation. But for infinity to be finite it has to create seperation and that is why it is illusion because it was created by infinity. 

The difference between infinity is infinity has no free will, it gives it up. It is so in love with itself it can't help but be everything.

Finitude is different. It makes distinctions, it has preferences, it sees duality and thus can make a choice. Why is decisions so hard for finitude...becauses its true nature is infinity and it wants to be everything, but if it is everything it cannot have a life and experience itself. So it has to trick itself so it can choose different things. 

This is how it works, and why it has to be this way. Otherwise...it can never be form. Infinity is a love addict, and once it takes an identity it becomes very attached. But you walking around here with...no experience, there is only appearance....stop all this nonsense your direct experience says otherwise.

If I tortured the hell out of you...you wouldn't be saying its appearance. You would feel pain. Pain is part of infinity.

Its not some construct....your feelings aren't illusion. That itself is the height of delusion because you are literally motivated BY FEELINGS!!! FEELINGS RUN REALITY!!! Why do you fall for the illusion of a body? FEELING!!! Why do you love someone....FEELING!!! Its freaking love!!! Its very freaking simple!!!

So much freaking delusion.... its very funny actually. 

[Leo Gura]

FYI, the whole point of the self-inquiry technique is to realize I AM.

[axiom]

4 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

So much freaking delusion.... its very funny actually. 

Arrogance is appearing

4 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

If I tortured the hell out of you...you wouldn't be saying its appearance. You would feel pain. Pain is part of infinity.

"you" would not be torturing anyone. Torture would be appearing. Pain would be appearing.

This is nothing to do with denying pain. It is simply to state that pain, as it appears, does not belong to a self.

[Razard86]

1 minute ago, axiom said:

Arrogance is appearing

"you" would not be torturing anyone. Torture would be appearing. Pain would be appearing.

This is nothing to do with denying pain. It is simply to state that pain, as it appears, does not belong to a self.

^You see what you are....I am your mirror if you see arrogance....because that's what you think of yourself. Every intrepretation...is self-created about itself. The appearance just is....so you are saying....that you are arrogant.