What went wrong with communism?

[Someone here]

The topic is all in the title. What went wrong with communism? My answer is that nothing went wrong with communism. The fault, if there is any fault, is in humanity. Yes, we are social animals, and we live in group, and act together in social groups of all sizes, from families to nations. But we also want stuff for ourselves, maybe stuff that others don't or can't have. The streak of greediness in us is as strong as the urge to socialise, and that is what went wrong with communism: human greed.

Morally, communism is far superior to Capitalism, but communism asks us to behave atypically, while Capitalism panders to our greed and baser nature, and so is more successful.

That's my take; what's yours? What went wrong with communism?

[SOUL]

Most aren't greedy but yea, everyone is a little selfish.

Yet tribes lived cooperatively for hundreds of thousands of years before capitalism ever came along so greed was kept in check through close personal interactions.

What really is the problem is that there are a small percentage of people that really are greedy, not just selfish actually do anything even at the expense of others greed. That is a trait which could be viewed as toxic to community and intolerant of it.

That small percentage pollute the social interactions enough it inflames others that would be just casual selfish before the instigation happens then in turn empower the greed mindset in  themselves after. One might consider it a viral impulse.

Although, capitalism is the perfect environment for this to happen then just add in a unhealthy dose of influential media and the sense of community is toast.

Capitalist greed feeds the sense of egoself more than community does, sure.

[Tron]

1 hour ago, SOUL said:

Most aren't greedy but yea, everyone is a little selfish.

Yet tribes lived cooperatively for hundreds of thousands of years before capitalism ever came along so greed was kept in check through close personal interactions.

What really is the problem is that there are a small percentage of people that really are greedy, not just selfish actually do anything even at the expense of others greed. That is a trait which could be viewed as toxic to community and intolerant of it.

That small percentage pollute the social interactions enough it inflames others that would be just casual selfish before the instigation happens then in turn empower the greed mindset in  themselves after. One might consider it a viral impulse.

Although, capitalism is the perfect environment for this to happen then just add in a unhealthy dose of influential media and the sense of community is toast.

Capitalist greed feeds the sense of egoself more than community does, sure.

the question is "what went wrong with communism" not capitalism 

[SOUL]

18 minutes ago, Tron said:

the question is "what went wrong with communism" not capitalism 

That's what went wrong with communism....the answer is in that reply.

[Kksd74628]

@Someone here

If I make game for people which requires 3 hands to play, is the fault mine or the people playing it?

[zurew]

10 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

If I make game for people which requires 3 hands to play, is the fault mine or the people playing it?

Do they have a choice not to play it?

[LfcCharlie4]

I would like to know how  atypical you would behave when your young children are starving for days on end. 

The history of communism is caked in millions upon millions of deaths, it was a stage red / blue model at best based upon violent dictatorships & totalitarianism. 

You're best off asking people who actually lived under communist regimes, there's a big reason most 'communists' are under 25s from Western Democracy's, and not the offspring of people who actually experienced it or those that did live through it...

[Leo Gura]

What goes wrong with anything?

Selfishness

[Carl-Richard]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What goes wrong with anything?

Selfishness

Selfishness -> bad coping strategies -> lack of resilience -> self-created suffering -> relational/collective manifestations of that.

My classmate and roommate spent the whole of last year skipping classes and smoking weed, and now he hates the teacher that flunked him in one of his subjects. I was thinking about asking him whether he thinks that feeling (along with his other problems) is self-created? Because I could probably make him agree that he knows how to not smoke so much weed (he is able to take breaks), wake up on time, go to class, buy the books and read them, but that he simply chose not to. Then on the other hand, I was doing the exact same thing in high school, and I was suffering very much from things I didn't feel I could control, so I understand it, but then again, he is generally much more resilient than I was (he goes to parties and pulls girls all the time despite doing all these things). So to me, it feels like he chose to hate the teacher, and he is a smart and self-aware guy, so I even think he might agree. If that is the case, that is also bad (the fact that people can merely choose to do the bad thing).

[Someone here]

I think that history supports the claim that communism is impossible, although I would say that unsullied democracy is also impossible, and for the same reason. As soon as an institution is set up, be it a political system or religion, those at the top will work to cement their positions and create a gap between themselves and ordinary people.

 The extremes of communist thought embrace an over-authoritarian stance, just as the extremes of right-wing political thinking do too. Not that that puts either side 'in the right ..how could it? Extremism never benefited anyone, that I know of, regardless of the detailed nature of the extremism (Bolshevism, Fascism, etc).

So my question is: is it reasonable to condemn communism because its extreme manifestations are unacceptable? After all, the same objections could (and should) be made concerning, as another example, unconstrained free-market American Capitalism, an extreme form of right-wing politics.

[Kksd74628]

@zurew

The point is that it is not people's fault if the system is made so it didn't take into account their needs and basic behaviours.

[Danioover9000]

@Someone here

   If we looked at native Americans, they are more closer to the ideal of communism, in that because of the environment and ecology of those tribes, level of development, cognition, morality, mass psychology, states of being,  life experiences and conditions, and other lines of development made ut much easier for them to embody communism at that scale. Compare that to the Russuan culture, conpare and contrast thiee two culture's historical development, and differences in conflicts and it's more obvious in that if a few people, or a group is both too selfish and has accumulated too much suffering, they pass it on to the next generation, which further stockpiles selfishness and so makes it harder for one culture to evolve to uphold higher values.

[Fleetinglife]

Most of your questions and uncertainties regarding this topic and question are explained and answered in this very educational, relatively short and not to much of a long video apt with sources and quotations from actual Marxist, socialist and communist theoretical works in regards to general Marxist theory, in an attempt to explain what went actually wrong with socialism as practiced in some differing forms in some countries in their attempted transition to communism domestically and worldwide as their final stated goal, solution and aim from their and the world's economic and social developmental standpoint (apart from viewing through an SD theoretical lense) would not maybe be very accurate, precise, clear and be overcomplicating it as an attempt by me to explain it  if somebody more elucidate, educated and intellectually refined currently than me already did it very eloquently, calmly here, with and by listing relevant authors and sources to a part of this question from a theoretical and historical developmental standpoint:

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Fleetinglife

[Fleetinglife]

3 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Someone here

   If we looked at native Americans, they are more closer to the ideal of communism, in that because of the environment and ecology of those tribes, level of development, cognition, morality, mass psychology, states of being,  life experiences and conditions, and other lines of development made ut much easier for them to embody communism at that scale. Compare that to the Russuan culture, conpare and contrast thiee two culture's historical development, and differences in conflicts and it's more obvious in that if a few people, or a group is both too selfish and has accumulated too much suffering, they pass it on to the next generation, which further stockpiles selfishness and so makes it harder for one culture to evolve to uphold higher values.

What was practiced as form of economy in pre-slave holding, pre-feudal and pre-capitalist small communal tribes, tribal confederations or some small localized or native city dwelling societies Marx and Engels in some works (like A Letter on Russia to Vera Zasulich and the Holy Family to name a few as an example I think I remember from the top of my head) have categorised it and referred it to as a form of primitive communism existing within an 'arhaic' form of a commune or groups of communes. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Fleetinglife

[DocWatts]

Also worth keeping in mind for context the  brutal survival conditions under which communism was actually tried.

Imperial Russia and China prior to communism were both backwards countries under the thumb of brutal and incompetent dictatorships. So it should be no surprise that a revolutionary vanguard consisting mostly of SD-Red had the best chance of winning a power struggle (and civil war) under those conditions.

Had communism been tried under more favorable survival conditions perhaps things could have turned out differently. We'll never know. 

One thing that's certain though is that Marx was dead wrong in his prediction that communism would take hold in the most advanced countries first, which should have been a warning that, his excellent critique of capitalism notwithstanding, his theory of what would replace capitalism was fundamentally flawed.

Which isn't the damning condemnation of Marx that it might seem, as plenty of other brilliant people have been insightful in some areas while being dead wrong in aspects of their theory. And I'd argue that there's plenty that can be salvaged from Marx, as people like Richard Wolfe have demonstrated.

Edited September 16, 2022 by DocWatts

[Gidiot]

What wrong with communism is that you have a selfless ideal with selfish people. Doesn’t mean it can’t be done, just like leo said, just because science “works” doesn’t mean it’s right or true. Capitalism “works” for a lot of people, doesn’t mean there is any truth to it. Communism has failed because the ideal is something we as stupid human chimps aren’t ready for. I mean people are still betting their life savings on football games, that’s how dumb we are