The Problem Is Materialistic Ideologies NOT Science!

[Brivido]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm saying that your hand is imaginary as you're looking at it.

Hey @Leo Gura I have some feedback about the way you express this particular teaching. It's too direct and not well elaborated: students that have never directly realized what Consciousness is will tend to give a negative meaning to statements such as "your hand is imaginary".

In part, this is due to the negative connotation that society gives to the concept of "imagination". Moreover, stating that everything is imagination seems to create a duality between imagination and reality, that leads people to despise the world because "it's just an illusion".

In the past, when you said things like that, I didn't really understand what you meant; I had to contemplate while tripping to understand it. Now I get that what you mean is that everything is my own Mind, my own Consciousness. Framing it like I just did gives off a different vibe than saying "everything is imaginary".

There is no better realization than the understanding that everything is imagination, because everything is your own Self. I feel like that your statements about imagination don't stress this point enough. 

The topic of imagination requires an episode, otherwise you will keep getting misunderstood.  

Edited September 14, 2022 by Brivido

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, Brivido said:

Hey @Leo Gura I have some feedback about the way you express this particular teaching. It's too direct and not well elaborated: students that have never directly realized what Consciousness is will tend to give a negative meaning to statements such as "your hand is imaginary".

In part, this is due to the negative connotation that society gives to the concept of "imagination". Moreover, stating that everything is imagination seems to create a duality between imagination and reality, that leads people to despise the world because "it's just an illusion".

In the past, when you said things like that, I didn't really understand what you meant; I had to contemplate while tripping to understand it. Now I get that what you mean is that everything is my own Mind, my own Consciousness. Framing it like I just did gives off a different vibe than saying "everything is imaginary".

There is no better realization than the understanding that everything is imagination, because everything is your own Self. I feel like that your statements about imagination don't stress this point enough. 

The topic of imagination requires an episode, otherwise you will keep getting misunderstood.  

What Leo said...has been said for decades. Neville Goddard said what Leo is saying. Its understood, its that telling someone that everything is imagination...scares people. You don't even need a psychedelic to understand it. You just need awareness and honesty. I mean even Sadhguru is telling people that the seat of your experience is within you. He also told people he didn't exist. 

What is your mind when you are day dreaming? Imagination. What is your mind when you are thinking? Imagination. When you have a feeling that generates a thought? Imagination. What is an opinion about a set of events that happened? Imagination.

You see we create a separation from reading a book, or watching a t.v. show, and movie and say oh that's a story, but when you tell a person that their interpretation of anything is a story they say NO ITS NOT ITS REAL!!! You see how funny this is? They actually think there is a difference between an interpretation of events called yesterday or today. Not only that...a person will tell you that your interpretation is wrong and THEIR interpretation is REAL and true. You see? We all do it. Its very funny.

Even the belief about a past. If you tell the average person who doesn't really think that the past doesn't exist anywhere but in the present. They won't get it, even when you initially explain it. So the problem isn't saying its imagination, the problem is people aren't USING their imagination. Because its very obvious what he is saying, its so obvious....you don't believe it can be true.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Razard86

[Brivido]

6 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

its that telling someone that everything is imagination...scares people.

That's exactly my point and my feedback to Leo.

As a teacher of non-duality scaring and shocking people it's not helpful, it will just activate the survival mechanisms of the egoic mind.

In my opinion, there are better and gentler ways to teach what Leo is trying to teach, when he says that everything is imagination.

Saying that everything is imagination, sounds almost derogatory, if not explained properly, due to the fact that the word "imagination" has a negative meaning for most people. 

Anyway, I am just trying to help him become an even better teacher, trying to point out something that I struggled with in the past.

[Razard86]

1 minute ago, Brivido said:

That's exactly my point and my feedback to Leo.

As a teacher of non-duality scaring and shocking people it's not helpful, it will just activate the survival mechanisms of the egoic mind.

In my opinion, there are better and gentler ways to teach what Leo is trying to teach, when he says that everything is imagination.

Saying that everything is imagination, sounds almost derogatory, if not explained properly, due to the fact that the word "imagination" has a negative meaning for most people. 

Anyway, I am just trying to help him become an even better teacher, trying to point out something that I struggled with in the past.

1. Don't you realize that is just preference? Should Leo conform to your teaching? What is better? Define better? Haven't you realized that Leo wants to shock people and be direct? Did you listen to why he does it because he stated that in the past.

2. Majority of Spiritual Teachers beat around the bush and it hurt people like Leo who preferred a more direct path. So notice Leo is providing a particular style that he would have preferred someone gave him. The famous be the change you want to be in the world is what Leo is doing.

3. Notice....you want Leo to conform to how most teachers do it and be more gentle....which was the issue he had with how they did it. So how you see things and how he sees it is different....at least now. I did hear him say he may add some less direct methods later but for now he seems intent on direct.

4. The beauty of reality...is you can get diversity. He is very direct but most aren't and that is what is so beautiful. Have you noticed when we really care about someone....we try to push them to be in a way that we think is better for them? Its an act of love but it also is an attempt to change someone and not accept them as they are. We all do it out of love but a selfish love. For example wanting someone to lose weight, or even for someone to be more confident and less negative. We are always trying to fix or improve people. Notice this....it is a violation of their sovereignty. Not saying you are doing this here....as you could frame what you are saying as a suggestion, but to more sensitive people (Not you or Leo) they could perceive even a suggestion as you saying they are inadequate or incompetent. Just some things to consider.... 

[r0ckyreed]

5 hours ago, Brivido said:

In the past, when you said things like that, I didn't really understand what you meant; I had to contemplate while tripping to understand it. Now I get that what you mean is that everything is my own Mind, my own Consciousness. Framing it like I just did gives off a different vibe than saying "everything is imaginary".

This makes more sense. What I still don’t get is if everything, even my own hand right now, is imagination or my own mind, then why say that science or Einstein is imaginary? To say that everything is imaginary seems futile because that also means everything is real. What is the difference between real and imagination? Just because it is imagination doesn’t mean it isn’t real.
 

It is true right now that I am imagining Einstein’s life and my past and future. But if we say that everything is imagination, then that means that reality is just as real as my thoughts of unicorns and science, which Leo explained in Deconstructing Science part 3. If everything is imaginary, then science will have to be imaginary because it is part of everything. But wouldn’t it also be real since my mind is imagining it? I don’t get the point in saying that X, Y, or Z is imaginary when you state that the whole alphabet is imaginary. Maybe it is to help me realize that the whole alphabet and reality are imaginary?

[r0ckyreed]

Also, how does one explain that if science is imaginary, then that means that psychedelics, meditation, trip reports, and awakenings are also imaginary since they are part of everything? What makes one part of reality more effective at raising consciousness to realizing everything is imagination? Seems like there is nothing beyond imagination.

Edited September 14, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[amanen]

16 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Also, how does one explain that if science is imaginary, then that means that psychedelics, meditation, trip reports, and awakenings are also imaginary since they are part of everything? What makes one part of reality more effective at raising consciousness to realizing everything is imagination? Seems like there is nothing beyond imagination.

They work directly with your state of consciousness, and reality is consciousness. So changing your state of consciousness, regardless of the method, would be useful for work relating to consciousness. Of course they are imaginary, but that does not mean they are not more effective for achieving the results. As for why these things specifically, it's just what the dream rules are.

[SOUL]

The notion that everything is only imaginary...is only imaginary.

Our interaction with everything including our own self takes place in the field of awareness in the mind, we have no direct access to it other than it's appearance in our mind.

People have used this to suggest that means everything is only imaginary. I myself have suggested that imaginary and imagination aren't the same thing for a lack of a more suitable word for the dynamic of our interaction with everything happening in the field of awareness.

It seems to me that there is confusion created with the use of the words imaginary and imagination for what mystics and spiritualists use it for the our perception of the physical manifest.

Materialists won't accept consciousness as anything more than a byproduct of physical matter no matter what word is used while many mystics view physical matter as a byproduct of consciousness.

I don't know if this philosophical rift can ever be resolved so I would suggest just be at peace with whichever way you view it and try to avoid stirring conflict with those who view it differently.

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by SOUL

[RMQualtrough]

I'm not really sure how or why the clearly wrong idea of a world out there, gets entangled in with science.

The two things are demonstrably not related at all.

[Thought Art]

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

The two things are demonstrably not related at all.

Uhh, they are pretty related 

Science is largely based on the belief of an external reality…

Edited September 14, 2022 by Thought Art

[r0ckyreed]

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

Science is largely based on the belief of an external reality…

That’s the problem I am arguing against. Leo and others here critique science as if science is one certain way. Science is simply the method you use to derive knowledge. There are so many forms of science out there that you can’t just lump them all together. You don’t need assumptions to do science. In fact, the assumptions take the “science” out of the science.

Science isn’t based on belief. If it is, then it isn’t science by default. Science is about investigating reality and deriving knowledge and truth, not belief. Belief is what religion is for.

As long as you have beliefs and assumptions, you aren’t going to be able to do any science. You have to be objective and unbiased to do science. Otherwise, you are just doing confirmation biases, etc.

Spirituality, psychedelics and meditation is a form of science. Leo even mentioned this in part 3 that spirituality is a science and we need to be the scientists of our own lives. Academia/materialistic science is only one brick of the house. But that brick sure does seem like it is a house because our culture is biased to only seeing science in a narrow way, and then we critique science from that narrow perception of society/culture.

All the arguments Leo made about science were really about the problems of how science is affected by human socialization and the biases humans have that prevent them from understanding reality. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[Matthew85]

14 hours ago, Brivido said:

Hey @Leo Gura I have some feedback about the way you express this particular teaching. It's too direct and not well elaborated: students that have never directly realized what Consciousness is will tend to give a negative meaning to statements such as "your hand is imaginary".

In part, this is due to the negative connotation that society gives to the concept of "imagination". Moreover, stating that everything is imagination seems to create a duality between imagination and reality, that leads people to despise the world because "it's just an illusion".

In the past, when you said things like that, I didn't really understand what you meant; I had to contemplate while tripping to understand it. Now I get that what you mean is that everything is my own Mind, my own Consciousness. Framing it like I just did gives off a different vibe than saying "everything is imaginary".

There is no better realization than the understanding that everything is imagination, because everything is your own Self. I feel like that your statements about imagination don't stress this point enough. 

The topic of imagination requires an episode, otherwise you will keep getting misunderstood.  

@Brivido I agree. Saying everything is imaginary is not particular helpful or useful. I like your suggestions. 

[Razard86]

8 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

This makes more sense. What I still don’t get is if everything, even my own hand right now, is imagination or my own mind, then why say that science or Einstein is imaginary? To say that everything is imaginary seems futile because that also means everything is real. What is the difference between real and imagination? Just because it is imagination doesn’t mean it isn’t real.
 

It is true right now that I am imagining Einstein’s life and my past and future. But if we say that everything is imagination, then that means that reality is just as real as my thoughts of unicorns and science, which Leo explained in Deconstructing Science part 3. If everything is imaginary, then science will have to be imaginary because it is part of everything. But wouldn’t it also be real since my mind is imagining it? I don’t get the point in saying that X, Y, or Z is imaginary when you state that the whole alphabet is imaginary. Maybe it is to help me realize that the whole alphabet and reality are imaginary?

He is saying that Science will need to realize everything is imaginary to take the next step forward, basically...we all right here are laying the groundwork.

[Thought Art]

@r0ckyreed Yeah but, the things your saying about assumption, ideology, beliefs etc are very difficult realities that all scientists face… yet they do science. 
 

You cant KNOW everything. Newtonian physics works for example, but it’s not true to the core of how reality works. People assume that because it works and is useful that it’s true. Quantum mechanics came along and showed there’s more to reality than Newtonian physics.
 

When you read books about the philosophy of science and science vs religion they aren’t as cut and dry, black and white as your making it out to be here. It’s actually far more intertwined and complicated than… than the myth of science shared by people.
 

Science claims to not be based on belief. But when you actually look how most scientists function and even how things like, scientific authorities, titles, history, belief in your methodology/ models etc…

Science is actually pretty much 95% belief. Admit to yourself you haven’t actually confirmed 99% of scientific findings. You’ve probably never really done science either. 
 

Science is also largely trapped in circular symbolic reasoning which limits it from really knowing what reality is. Because science is largely authority, models, symbols, etc it’s pretty much belief. 
 

Also, something like 70% of studies could not be recreated in a few well known studies.

Science does have biases… can you see them?

What is peer review but confirmation bias? What is the bias for certain ways of knowing vs other? What is the bias for survival vs truth?

Science has beliefs about what objectivity and subjectivity are… can you grasp that from a higher perspective? How “objective” is science really? 

 

Science NEEDS assumptions. Because, it can’t know everything and science is largely a survival tool used by human/ apes to manipulate and survive in the world. Then, calls that truth or the best thing to it. Science assumes much. These assumptions are often the paradigms that genius scientists spend their lives fighting to shatter with their leading edge discoveries. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

@r0ckyreed Your last point about meditation, psychedelics etc point to the future of science, but not as it’s commonly done. this, leo dispels the myth of modern science. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Thought Art

[r0ckyreed]

21 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Yeah but, the things your saying about assumption, ideology, beliefs etc are very difficult realities that all scientists face… yet they do science.

A person may say they are doing science in the same way that a person may say they are doing spirituality.  There are deep and shallow forms of both.  

 

21 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

When you read books about the philosophy of science and science vs religion they aren’t as cut and dry, black and white as your making it out to be here.

I will have to do more reading of these topics.  Recommend any good books on philosophy of science?  I think the distinction is knowledge vs. belief, True vs. false. 

21 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Science claims to not be based on belief. But when you actually look how most scientists function and even how things like, scientific authorities, titles, history, belief in your methodology/ models etc…

 

 I agree here.  Except I would rephrase it to state that humans are filled with beliefs, and as long as humans do not work to deconstruct beliefs and get at true knowledge, their science will be limited by their biases.  Hence, their science will be corrupted, which I think I am starting to get now what you mean.  The whole argument is based on the limits of modern science, the way science is conducted in the mainstream.  I gotcha.  But science as a whole is much bigger than mainstream and academic science, which is where I am coming from.  Revolutions in modern science need to take place to deepen how modern scientists investigate reality.  Me doing meditation and contemplation is a form of science that isn't viewed as so by the mainstream.

21 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Science is actually pretty much 95% belief. Admit to yourself you haven’t actually confirmed 99% of scientific findings. 
 

Also, something like 70% of studies could not be recreated in a few well known studies.

Given that we are critiquing modern, mainstream, academic science, I would agree.  Students have not questioned what science is and have never validated the scientific method as taught in academia as a "valid" method.

Real science or A.K.A. spirituality is about deconstructing beliefs to derive true knowledge about reality.  But who gets to decide what real or false science is?  Science and pseudoscience are one you could say.  You could also say the same thing about spirituality vs. pseudo-spirituality.  But to navigate through this world, to investigate it, and to do good science, we have to create helpful distinctions to help us jailbreak the mind or we will get lost within the default of natural programming.

15 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Your last point about meditation, psychedelics etc point to the future of science, but not as it’s commonly done. this, leo dispels the myth of modern science. 

Gotcha.  Yeah when I think of "The Field of Science," I imagine myself sitting alone in my room contemplating and investigating my own mind.  I also imagine Sherlock Holmes in his study looking through a microscope.  All of that is science.  The bullshit of science is writing papers and formatting all of that within the system of academia.  I have been there lol.

Thanks for helping me think this through.  

Edited September 14, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[Thought Art]

@r0ckyreed Personally I’ve been reading those “A very short introduction to”

- Philosophy of science 

- Science vs Religion

- Knowledge

- Infinity 

You make a lot of good points Btw

Edited September 14, 2022 by Thought Art