Frames and socialization

[Carl-Richard]

Leo says you should deconstruct the frames you've adopted through socialization and build your own from scratch. That is how you reach high levels of intelligence. But how do you know that your own frame is better than the ones before you? Is it that those frames were founded by people who didn't deconstruct their own frames and hence got stuck on false assumptions?

But what if you through your own lack of socialization so to speak, underestimate other people's ability to deconstruct their own frames, and that in fact by tapping into these other frames, you're thousands of steps ahead of where you could ever be in one lifetime? Why place the epistemic mother lode inside one mind and not thousands?

Is the claim maybe that by deconstructing your own frames, you fundamentally transform the inner workings of your mind? But still, why stick to constructing your own isolated frame, instead of manipulating multiple existing frames with this new-found power? What about the value of combining and contrasting already well-fleshed out perspectives?

Edited September 11, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[AtheisticNonduality]

You may have both, but to get your own "un-socialized" ones you have to at least temporarily get rid of the others.

[Consept]

To be honest I think there are as many issues or if not more with not socialising vs socialising. One glaring one related to this thread, is that you can get stuck in your own ideas about how the world works and this can develop into an arrogance that you are better than those that do socialise or at least you might feel that you understand the world better. This is a huge trap I think there is so much to be learnt from interacting with others, you should of course be aware of the traps within socialising, group think etc and this awareness can prevent you from falling down these traps. 

I do get what Leo is saying but generally I don't think it's great advice for people still developing to withdraw from society to contemplate and then be able to cope by believing that they're smarter than everyone else. As with everything in life its all about balance and both spending time by yourself and others can co-exist. 

Regarding building up frames, surely direct experience from others would to a much better model than you just sitting there working it out yourself. 

[BlessedLion]

I think Leo is absolutely right on this video. I notice when I’m alone I become so much happier, connected and alive, and much smarter as well. 
 

Recently I was in Los Angeles and I got depressed because the people I was around were just partying and melted into comfort. 
 

There was no drive for consciousness or awareness or even being a better person. It started giving me massive anxiety. 
 

I realized I would’ve been much better off just alone and reading the whole time. 
 

Maybe that’s just me though. I can also appreciate the social game and I’m actually quite good at it, not amazing, but I can work around a conversation and hook up with girls and stuff. I just find being alone more enjoyable and authentic. 
 

That said, I think there is a specific level of beauty and connection you can only tap into from socializing that you just can’t get alone. And when life gets tough you want people who are loyal around

[Matt23]

I notice that when I haven't socialized, I've thought of myself as pretty intelligent.  But then when I socialized with a group of philosophy students, I realized I'm not that smart.  

So that, at least, is one benefit of socialization: it can show you who you really are more accurately than if you spend all your time alone which can skew how you see reality and yourself.  

I'm actually kinda noticing that the more I socialize, the more psychological issues I forgot about which are now coming back and I'm like "Oh... fuck.  That's still there."  As if being alone was an escape and putting my head in the ground from my issues I haven't dealt with.

I'm sure there's benefits to both.   == Balance I suppose.  

Edited September 11, 2022 by Matt23

[Matthew85]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

But how do you know that your own frame is better than the ones before you?

This is a good question. In looking at my own life my higher mind seems to construct a mixture. It constructs people who offer insights and nuggets of truth and others that make me fall deeper asleep. 

I've have been questioning if God really even wants to awaken. It sure constructs a lot of deceptive influences to keep itself deeply asleep. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Matthew85

[LfcCharlie4]

14 hours ago, Consept said:

To be honest I think there are as many issues or if not more with not socialising vs socialising. One glaring one related to this thread, is that you can get stuck in your own ideas about how the world works and this can develop into an arrogance that you are better than those that do socialise or at least you might feel that you understand the world better. This is a huge trap I think there is so much to be learnt from interacting with others, you should of course be aware of the traps within socialising, group think etc and this awareness can prevent you from falling down these traps. 

I do get what Leo is saying but generally I don't think it's great advice for people still developing to withdraw from society to contemplate and then be able to cope by believing that they're smarter than everyone else. As with everything in life its all about balance and both spending time by yourself and others can co-exist. 

Regarding building up frames, surely direct experience from others would to a much better model than you just sitting there working it out yourself. 

+1 

Especially young people. 

However, people are also very different, some are naturally introverted, some naturally extroverted, and that also needs to be considered. 

For me, I love socializing & feel energized after if anything, so hated lockdown when there was zero socializing. 

But, then I also love spending time alone, so its finding the balance right for you I think. 

[Carl-Richard]

My question is mostly intellectual, i.e. philosophy, science etc. I'm not talking about hanging out with your friends.

[Matthew85]

@BlessedLion I think it depends what your goals are. The most important thing to Leo is the deepest understanding of reality. If this is your goal then spending a lot of time with characters asleep and lost in the dream would be counterproductive. But I also know people who are quite happy being immersed in the dream and have no interest in awakening. With the amount of influences God creates to keep itself asleep, I do sometimes wonder if God really desires to awaken. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Matthew85

[Happysimus]

Life is quite relative and so might be frames. I often think it is a matter of angle of perception that determines   the interpratation  which by default in consideration of the multicomplexity might  apear different

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Happysimus said:

Life is quite relative and so might be frames. I often think it is a matter of angle of perception that determines   the interpratation  which by default in consideration of the multicomplexity might  apear different

That doesn't mean anything.

[Razard86]

On 9/11/2022 at 4:39 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Leo says you should deconstruct the frames you've adopted through socialization and build your own from scratch. That is how you reach high levels of intelligence. But how do you know that your own frame is better than the ones before you? Is it that those frames were founded by people who didn't deconstruct their own frames and hence got stuck on false assumptions?

But what if you through your own lack of socialization so to speak, underestimate other people's ability to deconstruct their own frames, and that in fact by tapping into these other frames, you're thousands of steps ahead of where you could ever be in one lifetime? Why place the epistemic mother lode inside one mind and not thousands?

Is the claim maybe that by deconstructing your own frames, you fundamentally transform the inner workings of your mind? But still, why stick to constructing your own isolated frame, instead of manipulating multiple existing frames with this new-found power? What about the value of combining and contrasting already well-fleshed out perspectives?

Originality is a myth, everything is just a re-interpretation of the same thing. You want a reconstruction? Deconstruct the language you use, because you literally interpret through the language that you use. So if you really want to go to bottom, go all the way, either create new meanings for the words you use, or create another language altogether. 

But since all knowledge is coming from the same source anyway...then what is original when it comes from the same source? This is just silly delusion. There is nothing new, there has never been anything new, new=Is just a different form of expression of what existed before. If you think new is just a different expression then yeah new exists, but people get lost in delusion thinking that new is something that never existed. That has never been the case.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

Originality is a myth, everything is just a re-interpretation of the same thing. You want a reconstruction? Deconstruct the language you use, because you literally interpret through the language that you use. So if you really want to go to bottom, go all the way, either create new meanings for the words you use, or create another language altogether.

Language aside, and while again emphasizing that I'm talking about socializing with other intellectual perspectives (e.g. a famous philosopher) as opposed to more rudimentary perspectives (e.g. your friends), you'll certainly agree that there is a difference between generally relying on other people's ideas to guide your thought process vs. deriving your own.

The former approach relies more on the amount of ideas you can gather and synthesize into a new perspective, while the latter relies more on your own intuitions and synthesis of these. Now, in order for you to lose intelligence through socializing with many different sources of ideas (the first strategy), you'll have to consider yourself more intelligent than the average source of these ideas.

I think this is Leo's main assumption, and it's a big assumption. Conveniently for him though, he essentially defines intelligence as "the ultimate good", wherein he includes insights that are intrinsically tied to psychedelics and mysticism, which automatically places him on a pedestal compared to the average intellectual. From that perspective, Leo is essentially saying that "everybody except me is stupid", and he is right.

However, if we were to walk back the definition of "intelligence" to the Western conception of "intellect" (conceptual thinking), then we would draw a more humble conclusion about the negative or positive effects of socializing with other intellectual perspectives. From this perspective, socializing with other intellectual perspectives won't necessarily make you stupid, but they're instead "fucking with your high" so to speak (pulling you away from the insights related to psychedelics and mysticism).

Edited September 13, 2022 by Carl-Richard