LGBTQ+ SJW's BLM - Left Extremists - Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, Matt Walsh-Gender

[Aaron p]

People like Jordon Peterson, ben and matt strike me as very intelligent debaters and users of logic and simplicity. What confuses me is that, while I recognize that the natural progression of societal evolution leans in favor of libertarianism, I see a lot of really weird libertarian shit, peterson has been identified by some of us as someone who "brings balance to the force" by being a lib who actually has his head screwed on, unlike the majority of lib civilians who have obese half naked "women" with pink mohawks and rainbow banners that say "allow children to get gender changes at any age". 

…I was also discussing with a friend more recently about how typically, in the past, when there is a shift in the progress of societal evolution, there tends to be an overswing before an eventual and inevitable re-stabilization but that the overarching movement is still that of progression, positivity and necessity. and so in this regard i can understand why certain lib features may be a little exotic for a while and re-stabilize eventually...but im interested in looking at more stage blue individuals, why is it that people like Jordan Peterson and even Mr. Shapiro have really good debating skills and use of logic when contrasted against that of libertarian's (maybe I'm just looking at the wrong lib people). I just get the feeling that a lot of liberal philosophy is kinda damaging. like with this whole gender thing, there is solid research to suggest that gender related mentall illess exists strong and true and is related to drug abuse and genetic mental health disorders as well as massively increased rates of suicide and self harm even in protected areas where there is little to no bullying or oppression directed at them...

i suppose a good example is this...while there are edge cases, the vast majority of trans people arent edge cases and suffer with mental health issues, and im willing to be corrected if im wrong but jordan peterson says that he believes that a man is a man if he has a cock and balls and woman is a woman if she has tits and a vagina and he also says that, while he wont necesarily go out of his way to offend or hurt someone intentionally, principally, if someone wants trys to make him use certain pronouns even if it violates his beliefs then he isint going to do it because its a breach of freedom of speech.

Another example is matt's documentary "what is a woman?" which depicts the philosophy that, using modern liberal logic, how can a male identify as a female if females are now not classified as someone who has any kind of feminine features at all...what are they identifying as. What is a woman if you dont need a vagina, tits, long hair, certain biological components...

And should liberals and extremeist social justice warriors have the right to have an abortion right up until 1 day before birth and then after birth, heavily encourage the child to consider getting a sex change?

 

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So, while i can see that libertarianism is obviously correct, what is happening with all this strange gender stuff and are figures like ben, matt and peterson wrong?

 

(I know that there is probably more nuance to these issues and possible different nuances on a case by case basis)...Are these 3 individualds wrong for their approach to transgenderism? 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Aaron p

[Aaron p]

anyone?...im legit asking @Leo Gura ? 

[Leo Gura]

Maybe put in a bit more effort into your questions.

[Tyler Robinson]

This entire post is an extreme cherry picking of the left and overestimated Idolization of the Right. 

It couldn't be anymore dogmatic than this. 

 

[Aaron p]

18 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

This entire post is an extreme cherry picking of the left and overestimated Idolization of the Right. 

It couldn't be anymore dogmatic than this. 

@Tyler Robinson awesome, if im wrong i want to know about it...do you have any links to videos or pages or any names of people who arent cherry picked who i can check out?

[Tyler Robinson]

@Aaron p how about Barack Obama? 

How about Sam Harris?

How about Justin Trudeau? 

[Aaron p]

@Tyler Robinson i never seen Barack with a pink mohawk and a rainbow banner that says "encourage children to get gender changes" tho. I suppose my simplified question isint about Liberianisniam itself, but the isolated liberal philosophies identified in the OP. Is this just a matter that within each wing there will inevitably be exteemeists and that usually the extremeists on both sides have major flaws..

But the other question is, do we think that the isolated liberal philosophies listed in the OP are or have major flaws at all?

Edited September 11, 2022 by Aaron p

[Girzo]

19 minutes ago, Aaron p said:

 i never seen Barack with a pink mohawk and a rainbow banner that says "encourage children to get gender changes"

Have you ever seen abyone with such a foking banner?  I think it doesn't exist, it's not a serious position held by substantial amounts of people.

What is the issue with colored hair, too? If people had access to cheap hair paint in medieval times, the kings would have walked around in purple mohawks.

[Aaron p]

37 minutes ago, Girzo said:

Have you ever seen abyone with such a foking banner?  I think it doesn't exist, it's not a serious position held by substantial amounts of people.

What is the issue with colored hair, too? If people had access to cheap hair paint in medieval times, the kings would have walked around in purple mohawks.

@Girzo alright fair enough. But what do you think about the isolated liberal philosophies in the OP?

[Girzo]

I have read OP twice, but don't see anything I can comment on, other than disagree on your judgment on Ben Shapiro and Matt Walsh-Gender being any kind of thinkers and skilled debaters. And if Jordan Peterson has any value to offer, it's not his farts on topics of gender or fat people.

I am sociologist. If you are interested in the topic of gender, then you can read some Judith Butler. I think that by reading you will come to your own answers. You will also notice how much there is of a gap between people like Ben Shapiro and serious intellectuals.

[Danioover9000]

@Aaron p

8 hours ago, Aaron p said:

People like Jordon Peterson, ben and matt strike me as very intelligent debaters and users of logic and simplicity. What confuses me is that, while I recognize that the natural progression of societal evolution leans in favor of libertarianism, I see a lot of really weird libertarian shit, peterson has been identified by some of us as someone who "brings balance to the force" by being a lib who actually has his head screwed on, unlike the majority of lib civilians who have obese half naked "women" with pink mohawks and rainbow banners that say "allow children to get gender changes at any age". 

…I was also discussing with a friend more recently about how typically, in the past, when there is a shift in the progress of societal evolution, there tends to be an overswing before an eventual and inevitable re-stabilization but that the overarching movement is still that of progression, positivity and necessity. and so in this regard i can understand why certain lib features may be a little exotic for a while and re-stabilize eventually...but im interested in looking at more stage blue individuals, why is it that people like Jordan Peterson and even Mr. Shapiro have really good debating skills and use of logic when contrasted against that of libertarian's (maybe I'm just looking at the wrong lib people). I just get the feeling that a lot of liberal philosophy is kinda damaging. like with this whole gender thing, there is solid research to suggest that gender related mentall illess exists strong and true and is related to drug abuse and genetic mental health disorders as well as massively increased rates of suicide and self harm even in protected areas where there is little to no bullying or oppression directed at them...

i suppose a good example is this...while there are edge cases, the vast majority of trans people arent edge cases and suffer with mental health issues, and im willing to be corrected if im wrong but jordan peterson says that he believes that a man is a man if he has a cock and balls and woman is a woman if she has tits and a vagina and he also says that, while he wont necesarily go out of his way to offend or hurt someone intentionally, principally, if someone wants trys to make him use certain pronouns even if it violates his beliefs then he isint going to do it because its a breach of freedom of speech.

Another example is matt's documentary "what is a woman?" which depicts the philosophy that, using modern liberal logic, how can a male identify as a female if females are now not classified as someone who has any kind of feminine features at all...what are they identifying as. What is a woman if you dont need a vagina, tits, long hair, certain biological components...

And should liberals and extremeist social justice warriors have the right to have an abortion right up until 1 day before birth and then after birth, heavily encourage the child to consider getting a sex change?

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So, while i can see that libertarianism is obviously correct, what is happening with all this strange gender stuff and are figures like ben, matt and peterson wrong?

 

(I know that there is probably more nuance to these issues and possible different nuances on a case by case basis)...Are these 3 individualds wrong for their approach to transgenderism? 

   First of all, I'm a moderate conservative, so my takes are coming from that angle.

   JP, BS are good debaters in their respective positions, but I actually consider Destiny to be far superior in debating and arguing positions and executing many techniques that frame opponents in a bad light and have solid rhetoric and optics. There are many more far skilled debaters out there.

   Because of my exposure to Actualized.org material, and my development in value system, cognition, morality, personality, state of being, life experiences and other areas of development I can see JP's and BS's strengths and weaknesses and properly contextualize which of their talents are better here or there.

   Libertarianism, unfortunately, from my view, works only if you have a small government, that you and your group own, and enforce actively through might, which makes your ruling an authoritarian government, or a Authoritarian Regime hybrid. You're better off either being a progressive, or democrat, or Republican, or Conservative or a centrist. Even better, find out what policies you want for yourself and your community and stick to them.

[DrugsBunny]

This thread is a vicious attack on my brain cells.

[Danioover9000]

@DrugsBunny

6 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

This thread is a vicious attack on my brain cells.

   Savor the brain freeze.

[Aaron p]

Alright ok, I'll drop the pink mohawks, BLM and stuff. BLM is extremely important, I guess I'm generalising a lot. I'll even drop the Ben, Matt and Peterson parts... Anyone straight gay black white trans deserves respect...

...I guess just ignore the OP, answer these questions (and I am looking to be corrected if I'm wrong legit):

- is it alright to encourage/endorse/accept 10 year olds to question what gender they are and then facilitate the surgery for those children getting permanent gender transitions in combination with regular hormone replacement drugs?

- should abortion be allowed up until birth?

- have all gender related mental illnesses ceased to exist within the last 30 years?

- why are there massively disproportionate suicide, self harm and regular mental illness rates within the LGBTQ+ community even in areas where they don't have to face oppression and bullying?

- should someone be punished for not respecting certain LGBTQ+ beliefs by using "correct pronouns"?

(By the way, the reason I'm asking these questions is because I'm becoming more involved in libertarianism and progressivism since I was a hardcore stage blue Baptist for 20 years. I'm just trying to gauge the new environment). Respect, peace and love.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Aaron p

[Danioover9000]

@Aaron p

1 hour ago, Aaron p said:

Alright ok, I'll drop the pink mohawks, BLM and stuff. BLM is extremely important, I guess I'm generalising a lot. I'll even drop the Ben, Matt and Peterson parts... Anyone straight gay black white trans deserves respect...

...I guess just ignore the OP, answer these questions (and I am looking to be corrected if I'm wrong legit):

- is it alright to encourage/endorse/accept 10 year olds to question what gender they are and then facilitate the surgery for those children getting permanent gender transitions in combination with regular hormone replacement drugs?

- should abortion be allowed up until birth?

- have all gender related mental illnesses ceased to exist within the last 30 years?

- why are there massively disproportionate suicide, self harm and regular mental illness rates within the LGBTQ+ community even in areas where they don't have to face oppression and bullying?

- should someone be punished for not respecting certain LGBTQ+ beliefs by using "correct pronouns"?

(By the way, the reason I'm asking these questions is because I'm becoming more involved in libertarianism and progressivism since I was a hardcore stage blue Baptist for 20 years. I'm just trying to gauge the new environment). Respect, peace and love.

1. Unless the child specifically wants that gender identity and wants the hormonal treatment. The catch 22 here though, is that most children don't know enough nor are able to make their own decision for the path of their entire life, which then puts partial responsibility for the child's guardians to help them think through those decisions.

2. I would say abortion should be allowed if the mother's life is in danger, has been sexually assaulted and forced to be pregnant against her will, or too young to be carrying a baby. Also, I would say the first week to 1 month for the abortion, but past that and the fetus thing in question looks like a human baby.

3. I don't understand your question, do you mean to genocide all gender related mental disorders?

4. I speculate its social media induced, but there are other factors like dysfunctional relationships or family traumas and such, too many reasons why there's a suicide rate increase in these cases.

5. Context sensitive. For example, some tribal person who grew up in a tribe, in a third world country, migrating to the USA and doesn't know there are these bunch of pronouns, gets a pass for me. Do you mean legal punishment for not knowing a pronoun? Or do you mean public punishment and public humiliation?

Edited September 11, 2022 by Danioover9000

[Tyler Robinson]

1 hour ago, Aaron p said:

Alright ok, I'll drop the pink mohawks, BLM and stuff. BLM is extremely important, I guess I'm generalising a lot. I'll even drop the Ben, Matt and Peterson parts... Anyone straight gay black white trans deserves respect...

...I guess just ignore the OP, answer these questions (and I am looking to be corrected if I'm wrong legit):

- is it alright to encourage/endorse/accept 10 year olds to question what gender they are and then facilitate the surgery for those children getting permanent gender transitions in combination with regular hormone replacement drugs?

I don't think that 10 year Olds can decide their gender. So I'm against gender change for children. It can destroy them for life. 

 

1 hour ago, Aaron p said:

- should abortion be allowed up until birth?

No. Abortion only upto the first few weeks, once the fetus has taken shape, then abortion is rather difficult and should be on grounds of medical emergency and not on desire to abort. 

1 hour ago, Aaron p said:

- have all gender related mental illnesses ceased to exist within the last 30 years?

Gender related mental illness is too much of a broad term. If you are referring to transgenderism and homosexuality as mental illness then they are not. These are biological. 

 

1 hour ago, Aaron p said:

- why are there massively disproportionate suicide, self harm and regular mental illness rates within the LGBTQ+ community even in areas where they don't have to face oppression and bullying?

We as a society haven't accepted LGBTq. Even you thought they're mentally ill, they need acceptance and love and support rather than judgement. So you have to accept them either way regardless of their beliefs

 

1 hour ago, Aaron p said:

- should someone be punished for not respecting certain LGBTQ+ beliefs by using "correct pronouns"?

I don't think anyone should be arrested over pronouns. That would be ridiculous. However this does not mean that a trans person be harassed on the regular by constantly disrespecting their pronouns, that would be menacing. 

 

1 hour ago, Aaron p said:

(By the way, the reason I'm asking these questions is because I'm becoming more involved in libertarianism and progressivism since I was a hardcore stage blue Baptist for 20 years. I'm just trying to gauge the new environment). Respect, peace and love.

Good for you. 

[Tyler Robinson]

24 minutes ago, BenG said:

Yes. 

Bigotry masquerading as intellectualism, basically.

Omg yea perfect. Sad that society falls for something artsy fartsy or intellectual and cannot see beyond it. 

 

[DrugsBunny]

2 hours ago, Aaron p said:

- is it alright to encourage/endorse/accept 10 year olds to question what gender they are and then facilitate the surgery for those children getting permanent gender transitions in combination with regular hormone replacement drugs?

You're acting as if a young boy just says "I think pink is cool" and an onslaught of indoctrinated leftists rushes to their front door wielding the nearest pair of rusty gardening shears to dismember their phallic manhood and duct tape a silicone pair of fake tits on their chest then throws a social justice parade.

In actuality what happens is a youth with gender dysphoria is afforded extensive psychological screening to determine the necessity for what is clearly a life changing surgery. Once it is unambiguously determined that such a person would benefit from surgery, they are first afforded hormonal therapy which temporarily impedes puberty so the kid can later on make a more informed decision as to whether the actual surgery is something they are going to want. If not, they just stop taking the puberty blockers and literally no harm is done.

Any other interpretation of this issue that does not resemble what I've just relayed is merely ideological bigotry.

2 hours ago, Aaron p said:

- should someone be punished for not respecting certain LGBTQ+ beliefs by using "correct pronouns"?

Socially punished? Yeah, just as you're subjecting yourself to social scrutiny by throwing around casual N bombs.

Legally? Well that depends, are you an employer consistently subjecting an employee to harassment by continuously rejecting their identity and subjecting them to mental distress? Then yes, obviously. 

2 hours ago, Aaron p said:

- why are there massively disproportionate suicide, self harm and regular mental illness rates within the LGBTQ+

Because of views such as the ones I've just rebutted.

[Aaron p]

Interesting 

[Yog]

17 hours ago, Aaron p said:

is it alright to encourage/endorse/accept 10 year olds to question what gender they are and then facilitate the surgery for those children getting permanent gender transitions in combination with regular hormone replacement drugs?

No, I guess the idea should be entertained after the teen years, with serious consulting.

17 hours ago, Aaron p said:

- should abortion be allowed up until birth?

I am quite divided on this one. But I do not see a reason why it shouldn't be allowed in the first few months.

17 hours ago, Aaron p said:

have all gender related mental illnesses ceased to exist within the last 30 years?

No, it's just that "western culture" is a bit confused in regard to gender these days.

17 hours ago, Aaron p said:

why are there massively disproportionate suicide, self harm and regular mental illness rates within the LGBTQ+ community even in areas where they don't have to face oppression and bullying?

Can't really say much, it would be best if someone from the LGBT community can answer that, or someone who is familiar with the data.

17 hours ago, Aaron p said:

- should someone be punished for not respecting certain LGBTQ+ beliefs by using "correct pronouns"?

No, I think if language happens organically, it is mediated and decided between people. The same thing goes for identity, you don't really get to fully decide your identity yourself, it's partly negotiated with the tribe and needless to say, it is for the tribe, else you won't need an identity.