How unbiased can a human actually become?

[aurum]

I’ve been contemplating double standards a lot recently, partially because of Leo’s recent video and partially because of things going on in my own life.

I’ve seen how my own mind can be very quick to want to distort truth when it truly feels threatened. Like really, really threatened. And its made me wonder if it’s even possible for this not to occur.

For instance, how long would your principles against double standard last if you were legitimately looking at life in prison for something you did? Or it meant a loved one would die? Would you really still be “principled”, or would you be doing and saying whatever you possibly can to alter the outcome? Including lying, manipulating, etc. Really try to imagine it.

The fear is so strong and the outcome so terrible that it almost seems impossible.

Keep in mind, in this hypothetical situation, you will not be rewarded for your honesty or integrity in anyway. The exact opposite in fact.

What then?

Are we simply always going to have some level of fear / bias?

Based on my experience, the answer seems to be yes. We will always have some bias and hypocrisy for our own agenda, although we can improve. But perhaps this is a limitation of my current level of consciousness / development relative to this issue.

[puporing]

In the relative you can become more and more "God-like" but it's not the dimension meant for being totally God-like as then you would cease to exist as a finite being. 

On the other hand it's possible to be 99.999% "God-like" hypothetically if that's something one chooses to aim for. The remainder being very minimal survival needs.

Just my 2-cents. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by puporing

[Consilience]

Have you read up on the Tibetan monks who were imprisoned by the Chinese government and tortured, who came out more loving, deeper practitioners?
 

I don’t know to what extent, but the capacity of the human mind and heart to expand, to be unbiased, is mind blowing and possible with relentless practice. 

[aurum]

33 minutes ago, puporing said:

In the relative you can become more and more "God-like" but it's not the dimension meant for being totally God-like as then you would cease to exist as a finite being. 

On the other hand it's possible to be 99.999% "God-like" hypothetically if that's something one chooses to aim for. The remainder being very minimal survival needs.

Just my 2-cents. 

That feels right to me, in the sense we must be finite/selfish to be human and shouldn’t expect perfection.

Perhaps it is possible to develop yourself to the point where you are no longer hypocritical, but still have a selfish agenda you are acting out consciously. That distinction would be an interesting nuance to explore.

For example, eating another living organism for survival, while simultaneously understanding that if I was on the other side of the fork I’d be fighting like hell. And truly embrace that paradox.

 

39 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Have you read up on the Tibetan monks who were imprisoned by the Chinese government and tortured, who came out more loving, deeper practitioners?
 

I don’t know to what extent, but the capacity of the human mind and heart to expand, to be unbiased, is mind blowing and possible with relentless practice. 

I have not heard that story but I’d be interested to. And others like it to see what might be possible.

Mega-thread for examples of double standards and no mega-thread for examples of exemplary human unbias. The ultimate double standard 

[puporing]

2 hours ago, aurum said:

That feels right to me, in the sense we must be finite/selfish to be human and shouldn’t expect perfection.

Perhaps it is possible to develop yourself to the point where you are no longer hypocritical, but still have a selfish agenda you are acting out consciously. That distinction would be an interesting nuance to explore.

For example, eating another living organism for survival, while simultaneously understanding that if I was on the other side of the fork I’d be fighting like hell. And truly embrace that paradox.

What goes beyond the selfish agenda is like "conscious playing" (besides just being). Which is more about being in the moment and fully experiencing/appreciating what is occurring, and simultaneously able to let it go as well. More as a possibility, I mostly lean towards experiencing life fully and as consciously as you can be going about it until you organically arrive at something more in the present..

But yes when it comes to basic survival I don't think you can get around it, except I've heard some people can eat a lot less the more conscious they become rofl. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by puporing

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, aurum said:

I’ve been contemplating double standards a lot recently, partially because of Leo’s recent video and partially because of things going on in my own life.

I’ve seen how my own mind can be very quick to want to distort truth when it truly feels threatened. Like really, really threatened. And its made me wonder if it’s even possible for this not to occur.

For instance, how long would your principles against double standard last if you were legitimately looking at life in prison for something you did? Or it meant a loved one would die? Would you really still be “principled”, or would you be doing and saying whatever you possibly can to alter the outcome? Including lying, manipulating, etc. Really try to imagine it.

The fear is so strong and the outcome so terrible that it almost seems impossible.

Keep in mind, in this hypothetical situation, you will not be rewarded for your honesty or integrity in anyway. The exact opposite in fact.

What then?

Are we simply always going to have some level of fear / bias?

Based on my experience, the answer seems to be yes. We will always have some bias and hypocrisy for our own agenda, although we can improve. But perhaps this is a limitation of my current level of consciousness / development relative to this issue.

When I got into my car accident I told a police officer something that could have incriminated myself, knowing full well what could happen (basically that I was in an altered state) and nothing came of it. He wrote me two tickets and both tickets were dismissed at court without me having to pay anything.

You'd be surprised at how much honesty can be rewarded. I personally would tell the truth, I have found in my direct experience that telling the truth always serves the higher purpose. You can't wish for the world to be more truthful, then turn around and play the same game as them. Nobody is asking for perfection in this also, just do the best you can. 

[Tyler Robinson]

1 minute ago, Razard86 said:

When I got into my car accident I told a police officer something that could have incriminated myself, knowing full well what could happen (basically that I was in an altered state) and nothing came of it. He wrote me two tickets and both tickets were dismissed at court without me having to pay anything.

You'd be surprised at how much honesty can be rewarded. I personally would tell the truth, I have found in my direct experience that telling the truth always serves the higher purpose. You can't wish for the world to be more truthful, then turn around and play the same game as them. Nobody is asking for perfection in this also, just do the best you can. 

I'm deeply disturbed by this. What if someone is biased against you? 

[Razard86]

27 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

I'm deeply disturbed by this. What if someone is biased against you? 

Everyone is biased against you, its called perspective. Every perspective by default believes it knows better. If it didn't we would always be in agreement. The moment we disagree it is because we believe we know better, which is self-bias.

You can't be an individual without self bias, can't have a life without self-bias. Self-bias is a wonderful thing.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Razard86

[aurum]

39 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

When I got into my car accident I told a police officer something that could have incriminated myself, knowing full well what could happen (basically that I was in an altered state) and nothing came of it. He wrote me two tickets and both tickets were dismissed at court without me having to pay anything.

You'd be surprised at how much honesty can be rewarded. I personally would tell the truth, I have found in my direct experience that telling the truth always serves the higher purpose. You can't wish for the world to be more truthful, then turn around and play the same game as them. Nobody is asking for perfection in this also, just do the best you can.

I generally think you are correct.

My point was not to say that honesty is never rewarded and that lying is. This was just a fictional thought experiment where that was guaranteed not to happened.

So in your case, imagine you had a signed contract from “the universe” saying that if you told the truth about driving under the influence, you are 100% going to jail / prison for the max penalty. And if you lie, you will 100% get away with it. No legal repercussions .

Do you still tell the truth?

Obviously this is a hypothetical example and life doesn’t really work like this. We never have perfect information. And integrity / telling the truth is a nuanced thing. Occasionally telling a lie might be considered more conscious / loving. 

But I still find this an interesting exercise in self-awareness.

The point is, where is your “line” where your integrity breaks? And is it possible to develop yourself to where you don’t have a “line”? 

If prison doesn’t scare you, then maybe it’s something else.

[Razard86]

59 minutes ago, aurum said:

I generally think you are correct.

My point was not to say that honesty is never rewarded and that lying is. This was just a fictional thought experiment where that was guaranteed not to happened.

So in your case, imagine you had a signed contract from “the universe” saying that if you told the truth about driving under the influence, you are 100% going to jail / prison for the max penalty. And if you lie, you will 100% get away with it. No legal repercussions .

Do you still tell the truth?

Obviously this is a hypothetical example and life doesn’t really work like this. We never have perfect information. And integrity / telling the truth is a nuanced thing. Occasionally telling a lie might be considered more conscious / loving. 

But I still find this an interesting exercise in self-awareness.

The point is, where is your “line” where your integrity breaks? And is it possible to develop yourself to where you don’t have a “line”? 

If prison doesn’t scare you, then maybe it’s something else.

I rarely lie, its one of my best traits. All of my friends trust me because they know this about me, but obviously I'm not perfect.

Ironically I have found myself lying in the past to people who I didn't want to disappoint, like my mother...over stupid small things. Mostly out of fear that she will worry, her health is not good so I don't need her adding any stress to her life.

But yeah, everyone has the "line" that line is as you correctly deduced based on fear. Part of the reason I don't like lying is because I want the world to be more honest, so how can I ask the world to do something I won't do?  

Your question is could you develop yourself to not have a line? Of course you can, remove all attachments and you can. Just simply see everything as an illusion, as a figment of your imagination and not real. If you truly walked around in life and believed everything was FAKE, ILLUSION, and NOT REAL, that would make YOU REAL. Why? Because then there is nothing to hide. You would be completely authentic because there is nothing to fear. Notice the paradox here?

Because we act as life is real and authentic, we become LESS authentic. When we believe life to be Illusionary, and a Dream, We become more REAL, and HONEST. I could do this for hours how paradoxical life is.

But yes its possible...but are you willing to go that far? That is the deep end of the pool my friend.

 

1 hour ago, JoeVolcano said:

I have found this to be very naive and personally detrimental, in a world where nobody tells the truth, everyone is a hypocrite, and everyone jumps at an opportunity to scapegoat.

Everything is your mirror, you only ever experience YOU. If that's what you see, you are just seeing your reflection. 

[Leo Gura]

@aurum This one's for you:

The death of Socrates.

"Friends, followers, and students encouraged Socrates to flee Athens, an action which the citizens expected; yet, on principle, Socrates refused to flout the law and escape his legal responsibility to Athens. Therefore, faithful to his teaching of civic obedience to the law, the 70-year-old Socrates executed his death sentence and drank the hemlock, as condemned at trial."

Socrates last words as the poison moved through is body?

"Crito, we owe a cock to Asklepios. Pay it and do not neglect it."

Edited September 5, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

13 hours ago, aurum said:

Mega-thread for examples of double standards and no mega-thread for examples of exemplary human unbias. The ultimate double standard 

This is very hard to have because most humans are simply incapable of escaping their self biases yet we can collectively take measures to expose these biases on a societal level, something that you see in the modern cancel culture movements on places like Twitter. 

[gettoefl]

you're either still in the world of materialism playing tits for tats or you are in sync with god

i say do the one and be done for good and then do two and owe no one

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, JoeVolcano said:

That's pretty cheap. That's like saying if I see SD orange exploitation then I must be an orange exploiter. That's foolish. I had to learn it the hard way by being repeatedly exploited for my honesty when I least expected it, and in ways that I've never done and wouldn't even have occurred to me. Naivety is a thing, and so is prudence. Sometimes honesty is good and called for. Sometimes it's just stupid. You have to understand what you're dealing with here. 

That's your ego, everything is you, including me. So yes every trait you see resides within you. As long as you see "others" as different you judge and have conflict. Which is fine because you enjoy conflict which is why you are engaging in it right now. Every trait I have you have and vice versa because we are one. l

You are just a thought in universal mind, a partition if you will and so am I. So we are all just expressions of the same mind, so of course we are the same. So yeah you can resist, you can fight, you can wiggle all you want, but there will always be paradox, and hypocrisy if you claim otherwise. Its why karma exists, because everything is one, its why when you exert force to the left, there must be an equal force to the right. Because its all connected and all distinctions are imaginary.

Its why quantum physics literally says when you observe something your observation MAKES IT SO. So you SEE what you believe, and what you believe is just your reflection, because its you.

When I was in a high state of consciousness I literally saw reality shift to conform to whatever emotional state I was in, in real time. If I expressed anger, everyone around me started becoming angry, when I expressed joy, everyone did this.

It boggled my mind, I was like why is it at a lower state of awareness you cannot notice this? Its funny. Reality is a shapeshifter and will shape based on how your perspective holds it. This means we live in different realities from our own point of views.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Razard86

[aurum]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@aurum This one's for you:

The death of Socrates.

"Friends, followers, and students encouraged Socrates to flee Athens, an action which the citizens expected; yet, on principle, Socrates refused to flout the law and escape his legal responsibility to Athens. Therefore, faithful to his teaching of civic obedience to the law, the 70-year-old Socrates executed his death sentence and drank the hemlock, as condemned at trial."

Socrates last words as the poison moved through is body?

"Crito, we owe a cock to Asklepios. Pay it and do not neglect it."

Never heard that story. That is remarkable.