Why does atheism even exist ?

[Someone here]

Let's forget for a moment the fact that YOU are God..and just speak about God as the creator of the universe.  Surely this whole grand fine tuned universe must have a creator or a cause .it just didn't jump into existence out of pure coincidence. you don't walk on the street  and suddenly find a computer device or a smart phone and then assume they have no creator.

Even if you can accept that the universe could exist without a creator, the other choice would be Agnostic Atheism (that there may well be a creator, but we cannot possibly know what they are or were and so all organised religion is lies)

Edited September 4, 2022 by Someone here

[Nilsi]

So who created the creator? 

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

So who created the creator? 

If you keep going with this line of reasoning you will face the problem of infinite regress. You have to accept infinity as the only source of reality .either it's Gods all the way down .or one God that is eternal and uncaused.  Notice that you have no other option to explain existence. 

The ‘infinite regress’ argument posits that we cannot have an infinite amount of preceding events or causes. For if we have an infinite amount of preceding events then we can never get to where we are now, that there must ultimately be a ‘first cause’ or ‘prime mover’. An example that has been used to explain the problem is that of the soldier waiting for orders to fire.

imagine a soldier waiting for orders from other  soldier before to fire at the enemy. The soldier at the front asks the soldier behind if they have permission to fire. That soldier then asks the soldier behind them, then that soldier repeats the same process. Eventually we must come to a soldier that gives permission to fire, otherwise the soldier at the front of line would never be able to fire. There must be a soldier who is the ‘first cause’, the one that gives permission to fire

[Nilsi]

Just now, Someone here said:

If you keep going with this line of reasoning you will face the problem of infinite regress. You have to accept infinity as the only source of reality .either it's Gods all the way down .or one God that is eternal and uncaused.  Notice that you have no other option to explain existence. 

The ‘infinite regress’ argument posits that we cannot have an infinite amount of preceding events or causes. For if we have an infinite amount of preceding events then we can never get to where we are now, that there must ultimately be a ‘first cause’ or ‘prime mover’. An example that has been used to explain the problem is that of the soldier waiting for orders to fire.

imagine a soldier waiting for orders from other  soldier before to fire at the enemy. The soldier at the front asks the soldier behind if they have permission to fire. That soldier then asks the soldier behind them, then that soldier repeats the same process. Eventually we must come to a soldier that gives permission to fire, otherwise the soldier at the front of line would never be able to fire. There must be a soldier who is the ‘first cause’, the one that gives permission to fire

Hence the big bang story.

[Someone here]

Just now, Nilsi said:

Hence the big bang story.

Where did the big bang come from ? You have three choices:

1-either it came out of nowhere for no reason at all. 

2- coincidence. 

3- some cause have caused it .

Now ,do you understand why option 1, and 2 don't make sense ?and  the only explanation left is explanation 3?

[Nilsi]

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Where did the big bang come from ? You have three choices:

1-either it came out of nowhere for no reason at all. 

2- coincidence. 

3- some cause have caused it .

Now ,do you understand why option 1, and 2 don't make sense ?and  the only explanation left is explanation 3?

What's your point? God isn't any more plausible than a Big Bang for the rational mind.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Nilsi

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

What's your point? God isn't any more plausible than a Big Bang for the rational mind.

I'm not denying the big bang . Sure its a well accepted theory in the scientific community that explains the origin of the universe.  But you can't just STOP suddenly at the big bang and that's it. You have to explain where did the big bang come from . And if you posit another cause that is prior to the big bang ..then you have to explain where did that cause came from as well ..and no matter how many initial causes you posit..you have to explain them ad infinitum.  So you have to accept that the cause of the universe is infinity .and infinity is just another word for God. 

[Nilsi]

11 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I'm not denying the big bang . Sure its a well accepted theory in the scientific community that explains the origin of the universe.  But you can't just STOP suddenly at the big bang and that's it. You have to explain where did the big bang come from . And if you posit another cause that is prior to the big bang ..then you have to explain where did that cause came from as well ..and no matter how many initial causes you posit..you have to explain them ad infinitum.  So you have to accept that the cause of the universe is infinity .and infinity is just another word for God. 

It obviously can not be explained. Either you are conscious of Being or you are not. The Big Bang is the most plausible explanation within the materialist paradigm, that's all.

[Carl-Richard]

Atheism is really just another name for the Cartesian-Newtonian worldview.

[Someone here]

3 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

It obviously can not be explained. Either you are conscious of Being or you are not. The Big Bang is the most plausible explanation within the materialist paradigm, that's all.

It CAN be explained. Like I said I'm not denying the big bang. I'm denying the idea that the big bang is the ultimate origin of the universe. Meaning there was nothing prior to the big bang and the big bang just happened for no reason.  My mind can't comprehend such possibility. 

Are you an atheist? 

What would you accept as proof for the existence of God ? This is not quibbling, honestly, what I'm  looking to get from this question and answer is as important as how you answer it.

Is ‘proof’  some  scientific form of empirical experiment which puts God in a lab under a microscope? That would be a self-defeating premise and a self-contradictory expectation, which I’m sure you can see: if you could examine God in that manner he couldn’t be much of a God by definition of what a god is. So there is no scientific proof for the existence of god .not because God doesn't existence. But because God cannot be tested by the scientific method .God is infinite. And science is  finite. How could the finite comprehend the infinite? 

[Nilsi]

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

It CAN be explained.  

8 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Are you an atheist? 

 

Or so you assume.

Obviously not.

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Atheism is really just another name for the Cartesian-Newtonian worldview.

How ?they both were Christians/believers in God. 

Actually Descartes himself in his  book the meditations, provided his evidence for God, after cleaning the slate with radical skepticism  .he said he cannot trust his senses .like the faculty that produces dreams. That is, of those ideas that are adventitious, it might be that we produce them even if we do not do so willingly, as it happens when we are dreaming. But then he said what gives validity to our perceptions is God who cannot be deceiving us because in his model God wasn't a trickster .but an infinitely Good entity .

[Holykael]

Atheism exists because god created it.

Why did god create atheism? Because god creates everything without judgement or bias. If it can be thought of, it will exist at some point

[Razard86]

2 minutes ago, Holykael said:

Atheism exists because god created it.

Why did god create atheism? Because god creates everything without judgement or bias. If it can be thought of, it will exist at some point

Exactly you got it!!! I love you dude!! Way to show off your knowledge!

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

What's your point? God isn't any more plausible than a Big Bang for the rational mind.

The big bang doesn't really answer anything    where did the big bang come from?   Basically here you just throw your hands up and say ...well we don't know it just came out of nowhere.  But that doesn't answer anything.

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, Holykael said:

Atheism exists because god created it.

Why did god create atheism? Because god creates everything without judgement or bias. If it can be thought of, it will exist at some point

That's from the absolute perspective.  I'm asking more from the relative perspective.  Why some people deny the existence of god which should be obvious if we look at this miraculous existence? I

If you ask most theists, the reason is because gods are mysterious, unknowable, “ineffable” beings that exist outside of time and space and therefore cannot be detected in any way whatsoever (despite the fact that these same theists seem to know an awful lot about what these gods are like, what they have said and done and promised to do, what they want us to do, etc.)

That doesn’t mean those people are  sinners to not hold a god belief, but that is a separate discussion as it does not cover my question.

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, Someone here said:

That's from the absolute perspective.  I'm asking more from the relative perspective.  Why some people deny the existence of god which should be obvious if we look at this miraculous existence? I

If you ask most theists, the reason is because gods are mysterious, unknowable, “ineffable” beings that exist outside of time and space and therefore cannot be detected in any way whatsoever (despite the fact that these same theists seem to know an awful lot about what these gods are like, what they have said and done and promised to do, what they want us to do, etc.)

That doesn’t mean those people are  sinners to not hold a god belief, but that is a separate discussion as it does not cover my question.

In my early years when I was an atheist I was because I thought if God existed he would show himself.  And then you are raised in the age of science and the materialist paradigm.  Even though I was Jewish I just immediately assumed religion was just something that kept the family together (my grandfather would often say this) .  I just figured God and Spirit were just stories...very Interesting myths but that's it.  After all, we had science and science could explain everything.   So yeah I think a lot was culture and a lot is that God is very mysterious and we don't take to this well.  If we can't see it or touch it, it doesn't exist.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Inliytened1

[Nilsi]

12 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

The big bang doesn't really answer anything    where did the big bang come from?   Basically here you just throw your hands up and say ...well we don't know it just came out of nowhere.  But that doesn't answer anything.

I'm not advocating for the Big Bang lol.

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

In my early years when I was an atheist I was because I thought if God existed he would show himself.  And then you are raised in the age of science and the materialist paradigm.  Even though I was Jewish I just immediately assumed religion was just something that kept the family together (my grandfather would often say this) .  I just figured God and Spirit was just stories...very Interesting myths but that's it.  After all, we had science and science could explain everything.   So yeah I think a lot was culture and a lot is that God is very mysterious and we don't take to this well.  If we can see it or touch it, it doesn't exist.

Yeah I can relate. 

I remember lying awake in bed as a child, eyes wide open, while the darkness seeped into my room. From my window I saw stars dancing, and I wondered, “Is there a God?” That thought opened the door to a number of other questions. If he is there, how long has he been there? Who made him? And what is he thinking? If he existed forever, does this mean I will exist forever? Now that was a very uncomfortable idea for my young mind to ponder. Life without end was too big a thought for me to handle. So I turned my attention to less stressful matters.like how to impress girls in high school and other such nonsense ?

My parents were open but cautious about God’s existence. They certainly weren’t atheists, but neither did they accept the notion of a personal God. Mine was a home that embraced the supernatural in general, but had no patience for a God who meddled in the morality of mere men.

[Someone here]

@Nilsi you are not making your point clear. your replies are "incomplete"in a sense.