Another Destiny vs Mr. Girl, very heated and confusion.

[zurew]

6 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

I don't know how should I perceive people who were arguing with me after this conversation, because I thought this was the basics of the basics.

That just shows that some people are more and some less educated about how well they use their words.

Why do you assume, that people who disagree with you - are dumb?

I have not seen you ever making a humble post on this forum, or a post that would show that you are capable of self reflection.

[Kksd74628]

@zurew

Because it's not about disagreeing, but the thing I am talking about should be foundation of any reasonable conversation. In what I am talking about there shouldn't be opinions, because it's not opinion based question even. I can be extremely humble, but there's time for everything in life. What should I even be humble about now :D? If you guys wanna play in a world where you have to ask definitions for everything and nothing makes sense anymore then go and have a party, but I am not joining. I prefer living in a world where we can at least talk and understand each others.

[zurew]

1 minute ago, Kksd74628 said:

What should I even be humble about now :D?

About the fact, that a lot of people here are disagreeing with you, and your first assumption is that - "people who disagree with me must be dumb" and not that "Wait, maybe i am missing something, or let me ask clarifying question or let me find out what we disagree on and why"

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

I prefer living in a world where we can at least talk and understand each others.

Funny thing is that you are not operating on dictionary definitions at all. You are in your own world with your own made up definitions, and you use those definitions to think about things - just as anyone else.

Proof is your communism definition. That was not a dictionary definition that was your own definition - and thats all good.

[Kksd74628]

@zurew

Actually I looked finnish dictionary and writed that definition here about communist, but whatever. If you want one more chance, I can give it to you. Would calling neo-nazi as a nazi be wrong?

[zurew]

 

27 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

If you want one more chance, I can give it to you.

? ? ? ?,

Very much appreciate your serious effort - that you are so willing to have a serious discussion with dumb people like us.

27 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

Actually I looked finnish dictionary and writed that definition here about communist, but whatever.

So you had to look up the definition in a dictionary ,because you couldnt desribe and summarize the concept on your own. You implied it yourself - that there is only one right meaning to everything , so the conclusion is that you didn't learn the definition of communism beforehand. - so who is the uneducated here?

27 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

Would calling neo-nazi as a nazi be wrong?

This wasnt even the thing that we were disagreeing on.

 

What is your steelman version of mine and what is your steelman version of Carl's position.

Edited September 8, 2022 by zurew

[Kksd74628]

@zurew

Just answer to the question and we can move further in this discussion; would calling neo-nazi as a nazi be wrong? Also I agree that I can't know the definition for all things and especially in history field I am not that great. When you answer to that question we can continue, thanks.

[Scholar]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I was asking for a clarification, not an insult. But sure, who knows? Maybe I won't understand that either, but what we do know is that you once wrote a long topic talking about how you struggle explaining yourself.

Well, like I said to me it's pretty clear, I wouldn't know how to word it differently.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Scholar

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Kksd74628 said:

Actually I looked finnish dictionary and writed that definition here about communist, but whatever. If you want one more chance, I can give it to you. Would calling neo-nazi as a nazi be wrong?

I think your obsession with dictionaries is way beyond the point of the original discussion, which is about whether it's reasonable to sacrifice basic aspects of clear communication to potentially help you win over the other side, or whether that sacrifice is in fact detrimental to that mission.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

@Tahuti

Did you watch the video? Do you have any of your own thoughts on it?

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Tahuti said:

I watched it. It was a great debate.

What was great about it?

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

Well, like I said to me it's pretty clear, I wouldn't know how to word it differently.

I don't understand why you don't want to clarify or simplify even once. When I write something, I want people to understand me first and foremost, and I feel it's on me if something is unclear.

I also think that your first comment was rather strange, because it didn't mention any of the arguments in the discussion, but instead it was just a general character profile of mainly Mr.Girl.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

20 minutes ago, Tahuti said:

The video was too argumentative for me to digest the premises put forth. 

Do you agree or disagree with some of the arguments?

[Danioover9000]

@Kksd74628

On 9/7/2022 at 10:26 PM, Kksd74628 said:

@Danioover9000

You just proved another thing in your response. You said that people learn definitions from people around them. So basically if we'd be more connected to other human beings which should be one goal of politics we'd share more definitions with other people. So the reason why some groups have different definitions to other groups is that they have their ideology in it. I think we should leave words neutral and build our opinions and worldviews around those and not the another way around. Definition is perspective is a way of seeing things and if you push your definition to people that means you push your agenda.

This goes like a chess. We should agree on how pieces move, but after that you're free to do whatever you want with your correct moves.

   Not that easy in practice. Words are like tools that signal to your mind which is good or bad, and at which degree, and at which line and complexity of logic, and so on into abstraction and towards going meta. However, when you are going mesa, and contextualizing words with their associated objects and happenings, to describe a thing or action that was harmful and nearly killed you, those words bring with it immense value to a mind's survival.

   So, while at the higher level's words can be completely relative, but at the lower level of practicality, they are useful for communication purposes, especially to other people to signal danger or something else.

   I still don't know why I'm being used as proof of some kind of argument you're having, especially without asking for my permission, can you tell me why?

[Kksd74628]

@Danioover9000

Words are not tools to signal which is good or bad, but tool to convey that.

3 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

I still don't know why I'm being used as proof of some kind of argument you're having, especially without asking for my permission, can you tell me why?

Because you explained why people share definitions with their "allies" in politics and I thought that this aligned with what I said about that having "own definitions" is just about sharing ideology in terms that you use.

[zurew]

15 hours ago, Kksd74628 said:

I prefer living in a world where we can at least talk and understand each others.

How is that most intellectuals, debaters, normal people can understand each other clearly and fine and settle disagreements, without ever [or very rarely] having the need to use a dictionary?

Edited September 9, 2022 by zurew

[zurew]

52 minutes ago, Tortured Soul said:

Clearly you are not then an intellectual or normal person

Can you explain why do we need to use a dictionary here in order to understand each other?

I am suggesting here, that there are better tools to clear things up and to understand each other, other than using a fucking dictionary every time.

Edited September 9, 2022 by zurew

[Carl-Richard]

51 minutes ago, Tortured Soul said:

Clearly you are not then an intellectual or normal person

Intellectuals in particular often deal with concepts that are not in the dictionary, or again, their use is much more specific, have different interpretations, or they mean something else entirely than the dictionary definitions. The best example of this is the word "consciousness". It can mean anything from phenomenal consciousness (the usual mystical definition; phenomenal qualities), intentionality (conscious private inner life), meta-cognition (self-reflective capacity), responsiveness (as opposed to unresponsiveness due to e.g. acute head injury), wakefulness (as opposed to sleep), etc.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Tyler Robinson]

4 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Intellectuals in particular often deal with concepts that are not in the dictionary, or again, their use is much more specific, have different interpretations, or they mean something else entirely than the dictionary definitions. The best example of this is the word "consciousness". It can mean anything from phenomenal consciousness (the usual mystical definition; phenomenal qualities), intentionality (conscious private inner life), meta-cognition (self-reflective capacity), responsiveness (as opposed to unresponsiveness due to e.g. acute head injury), wakefulness (as opposed to sleep), etc.

I don't think intellectuals care too much about definition. They care more about meaning. But the real question should be why we should care about what intellectuals think. 

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

I don't think intellectuals care too much about definition. They care more about meaning.

Definitions assign meaning.

 

2 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

But the real question should be why we should care about what intellectuals think. 

Their main duty is a precise language and clear communication.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Carl-Richard