Should i Manipulate Others or Not?

[Razard86]

I had this thought years ago and it is based on how you look at it. Manipulation= control. Over years and years of this word being used the definition in relation to social situations has changed to mean something deceptive or dishonest. Influence which is a form of control has been used as the positive form of control. 

Here is what Merriam-Webster defines manipulation. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/manipulate

So currently its basically the dark form of control and influence is the light form of control.

I would say this, if you act in a way that is an authentic expression of yourself and is not self-serving and people like how you express yourself then that would be influence. But if you do something for the purposes of getting something from others whether its praise, attention, money, etc. then its manipulation. 

With this in mind we are all guilty of manipulation and even the most honest of us still probably manipulate in small subtle ways we are not even aware of. For example you may give a fake smile when someone greets you as a social pleasantry. In one vain you could say, well where is the harm? The harm is it isn't an authentic expression, you are doing it to be considered "civil." A lot of our social subtleties  are small forms of manipulation.

Alan Watts is famous for saying he only trusts people who own their rascals or basically own the dark parts of them. We should aim to act in the way Immanuel Kant says which is make people an end not a means to an end. So if you do something to make someone else feel better and it wasn't an authentic expression, I think its okay. Sometimes the authentic expression you have may cause uproar or disturbance. You have to balance authenticity and harm. The truth is the most dangerous thing in the world, even more so than a nuclear bomb, it is a sword, so you have to be careful how you wield it. 

That doesn't mean going around and being a people pleaser either. Each situation...calls for a different action. The greatest truth...is there is not ONE answer, there is only the answer that fits the situation. 

[SQAAD]

@r0ckyreed

20 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

Sounds like something Trump or any Devil would say. 

 

Be a leader, not a Devil.

Great leaders are persuasive, influential, and inspirational. They lead with love, wisdom, and selflessness.

Great Devils are great manipulators and are at the forefront great masters at manipulating and deceiving themselves. Devils manipulate because of fear, ignorance, and selfishness.

Edit: The manipulated (selfish) life is not worth living.

My point is that even 'great' leader do use countless of manipulations. Manipulation is any means and tricks (good or bad) you use to achieve a goal. I believe that there are good forms of manipulation .

We all manipulate.

Leo's videos about getting laid is all about manipulation. Doing this, not doing that, saying things this way , not some other way. Being humorous, playing with womens emotions. What are all these?? 

[SQAAD]

@ZzzleepingBear

20 hours ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

Would that be a positive or a bad thing to you then? I assume that you use snake in a symbolic way here. So how do you make it make sense so to speak?

I really don't know anymore if its positive or negative. I think manipulating to make other people more conscious and maybe earn some extra cash is not bad. 

You cannot avoid playing the game of life. Its a game with all kind of tricks. If you don't use those tricks then your survival will be hindered and other devilish idiots who don't think twice about their devilry will gain power and corrupt others..

I prefer conscious people having power rather than unconscious people.

I don't think manipulations can be avoided unless you are at a super high level of Consciousness like Ramana Maharshi. For the rest of us mortals we have to manipulate.  

I am a very empathetic person and i care about being good. Recently i have been gaining some awareness of my manipulations. I think twice about this kind of stuff.

That's why i want some feedback on this topic. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by SQAAD

[NoSelfSelf]

@SQAAD Caring about being good is biggest manipulation of them all ?

[ZzzleepingBear]

12 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

@ZzzleepingBear

I really don't know anymore if its positive or negative. I think manipulating to make other people more conscious and maybe earn some extra cash is not bad. 

You cannot avoid playing the game of life. Its a game with all kind of tricks. If you don't use those tricks then your survival will be hindered and other devilish idiots who don't think twice about their devilry will gain power and corrupt others..

I prefer conscious people having power rather than unconscious people.

I don't think manipulations can be avoided unless you are at a super high level of Consciousness like Ramana Maharshi. For the rest of us mortals we have to manipulate.  

I am a very empathetic person and i care about being good. Recently i have been gaining some awareness of my manipulations. I think twice about this kind of stuff.

That's why i want some feedback on this topic. 

I think your honest confusion about wheter the symbolism of snakes is good bad or both, is a good sign that you can and need to explore your line of thinking and motivations further. To call someone a snake, is to make a symbolic statement that you have taken a particular side inorder to make such a call out meaningful. If everyone is considered being a snake, we may aswell scrap the symbolism as it wouldn't allude to anything other than a particular animal for no apparent reason.

You are asking big questions here, so the chance that you get one reply that explains it all in one go, is at best slim to none. My advice is to try to break down your question/questions a bit, so you don't need to eat the whole elephant all in one bite.

The way you ask this questions, seem to me. To be more about moral concerns, rather than that of a neutral curiosity about how manipulation works in general.

The intention to manipulate, is different from someone who have a active interest to manipulate. And both sides will eventually be caught up in some level of manipulation regardless of intent. But intent is what makes the actual difference in why or how manipulation arise in different ways. And that is also what laws in general is built around aswell, the level of intent in relation with a crime.

[SQAAD]

@Aaron p

17 hours ago, Aaron p said:

I think manipulation is a part of life...at the end of the day you can't do anything unless you control something, if Leo hadn't have manipulated his teachings in such a way that my unconscious mind could receieve it, only to later realise [by becoming conscious through his teachings] that I needed it...I would still be lost and unconscious. 

I manipulate my car when I drive to work, I intelligently do and say things that I know will emphasis my positive attributes in an interview. I don't crush anyone else when I do it...it's just how certain parts of nature works. There's obviously corrupt forms of control like big Stalin lol...my mate, but you'll often find that [for example] girls want a guy who leads strongly and who breaks their socially acceptable "walls of modesty" down in a socially calibrated fashion. It's an unspoken requirement that certain guys get and certain guys don't. Girls can't not resist, or they'll endanger their ego of being "non-slutty" and if you don't fight for them (or control/manipulate circumstances intelligently) they'll be pissed off. Lots of girls want a guy who dominated to a socially calibrated degree. finding that Ballance is an art...especially with Intuition.

Yes i agree with you. Finally someone understands my position.

Some people just don't wanna admit how much they manipulate others. Manipulation has a bad connotation to it.

 

[SQAAD]

@NoSelfSelf

16 hours ago, NoSelfSelf said:

Its another thing that you look for a girl to fuck her to get something from her i dont even think about her im thinking what im gonna do and ill be direct in what im doing and moving where i want it to go and she has every right to say no based on her no im moving on another or see what shes willing to give(no manipulation)...

Ofcourse im not there im actually working on it right now and catching myself...

 

I find it hard to understand some parts of your post. I highly doubt you don't think about her and only care about what you are gonna do.

If you use certain tricks to get her to like you more and increase your chances of slipping into her pants then that is manipulation right there.

You do not act freely and genuinely 100% of the time. 

For example when i talk to others, i wanna talk all the time but i don't . I try to speak as little as possible so they respect me more. That is another trick (manipulation) i use.

What i really want is to never stop talking. But then the other person will not take me seriously. So i am forced to play this game. It's an act. But many people just don't want to admit what they are doing..

There are countless examples of this.

[SQAAD]

@JosephKnecht @JosephKnecht

21 hours ago, JosephKnecht said:

How do you know what you want? You might think you want something, but actually want something else.

You may think you want money, but you want security. You may think you want a girlfriend, but you want love.

First, figure out what you TRULY want. 

You can never manipulate someone who is more conscious than you because they can smell your BS.

You can only manipulate those who are less conscious.

"Manipulate" them so that they can realize the things you have realized.  

You've made some good points.

[NoSelfSelf]

@SQAAD Ok you came to conclusion that you must manipulate i choose that i wont manipulate and thats that its a choice...

Im not looking for her to like me btw thats pointless thing to try to do stuff for them to like me...

Look we all manipulate in some ways  but im giving you ways that you do it less and its way better for resaults actually...

You can find peple who will just listen and you talk ?

If you have her in mind then you are losing from the start you look how to simp for her to like you which is really bad situation for you..

Having yourself in mind is the key 

You doubt because you dont understand game only pick up manipulation game...

[JosephKnecht]

17 hours ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Danioover9000 for me manipulation is when someone doesnt want to do something and you make them do what you want, by some means or you think less of yourself so you need to hide behind something to manipulate...

So i dont see how being influential is manipulation only if you force it on others ...

Woman being attractive is manipulation then because when someone come in front of a woman shes manipulating him with her beauty or something ??

If all is One, who is manipulating who?

And for what reason? 

[NoSelfSelf]

@JosephKnecht Now you ruined our game ?

[gettoefl]

there is three cases, they know they want it they don't know they want it they don't want it

the 3 words respectively are acquiesce, reprogram, manipulate

you are reprogramming them if you know better than they do for example a parent and a child

don't manipulate people even if it's pickup, it's low conscious behaviour

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@JosephKnecht Now you ruined our game ?

Yes....always ruining our games lol.

[Osaid]

On 9/3/2022 at 3:34 AM, SQAAD said:

The reason i am asking is because sometimes i feel bad when i manipulate others. For example i might cause fear to someone to gain his attention otherwise he won't listen to what i have to say. If i don't use these manipulation i will not be nearly as effective and it will probably hurt my survival which i am very scared of..... It is a real challenge... If i do the manipulation , i feel bad and question myself. And  if i don't do the manipulation i am terrified of my survival agenda going down the drain.....

You're honestly putting too much value on other people's thoughts and decisions.

A lot of people don't even know what they want. They impulsively make random decisions all the time, decisions that are even bad for them. They are constantly influenced by the environment around them to do bad and unhealthy things. It's not that big of a deal if you step in and offer something, maybe through some manipulative tactic. They have bigger problems to worry about than that. Sometimes you need to force your way into it in order to show your value to someone. You are constantly manipulating anyways, that is your existential bind, might as well do it for a somewhat decent cause.

In the case of PUA, you need to push your way into it in order to make the girl realize your value as a man. You are trying to give them value, you just need some method to make them actually consider you first. You guys might click together. You might save her from a shittier relationship. Who knows. You're not trying to be malicious or anything, it's not a big deal. 

The same people you're worried about offending or being too manipulative towards are also being manipulative in other areas of life, and they probably don't even give it a second thought. And secondly, there are probably a large amount of bad influences manipulating them, but they don't even care about them. Fast food commercials, bad information online, their parents, etc. Overall, don't sweat it, there are bigger things to be worried about. People don't really know what they want and don't want. 

You're afraid of using fear? Imagine a cat that is walking on the road, and it is about to be hit by a car. Lets say you scream at the cat and scare it, so that it runs out of the way of danger. Was using fear there wrong? Should I feel bad about it? Like, no. The cat is probably scared by about 1000 other things on a daily basis anyways. Not a big deal, and it actually ended up saving and benefitting the cat despite you using a malicious tactic like fear. That's life.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Osaid

[JuliusCaesar]

All communication is inherently manipulative because all manipulation boils down to is ultimately influence. Any moralizing is horrendously subjective because any model of morality we conceive of is just as valid as any alternative. As such, it's perhaps wrong or foolish to demonize manipulation or manipulators, because we are all manipulators ourselves.

 

Manipulation ultimately exists for the same reason that everything else does. Because objectively speaking, it is very good. Without manipulation, orgasms wouldn't be possible or even thinkable, currency based or indeed any form of economics would be impossible, hell even basic human interaction wouldn't be possible. A world without manipulation is a world you don't want to live in.

[Razard86]

9 hours ago, JuliusCaesar said:

All communication is inherently manipulative because all manipulation boils down to is ultimately influence. Any moralizing is horrendously subjective because any model of morality we conceive of is just as valid as any alternative. As such, it's perhaps wrong or foolish to demonize manipulation or manipulators, because we are all manipulators ourselves.

 

Manipulation ultimately exists for the same reason that everything else does. Because objectively speaking, it is very good. Without manipulation, orgasms wouldn't be possible or even thinkable, currency based or indeed any form of economics would be impossible, hell even basic human interaction wouldn't be possible. A world without manipulation is a world you don't want to live in.

It all depends on how you define it. I once thought like that, but now for some reason the dictionary wants to make a distinction between manipulation and influence. It is what it is.

[Tyler Robinson]

God you reminded me of Alan Watts. That thought has always been at the back of my mind. 

 

[Arcangelo]

Should i Manipulate Others or Not?

You are already doing it. It's human nature.

Trust me, I am a salesman, I manipulate for a living.

[ZzzleepingBear]

So the title of this thread is, "Should I manipulate others or not?"

The title implicit that there might be a problem attached to manipulation as a whole. Otherwise, the title should be "How much should I manipulate others?" If OP already had accepted manipulation as part of the human interactions. 

If manipulation is considered the right conscious thing to do, even the only choice available. Then how could there be a reasonable question around or about it if that where the case? It would simply be a absurd question. Here is a example of a absurd question based on the premise that you have no choice in the matter, so get ready to be confused as I prove my point.

"Should I breath air around others or not?" It's an absurd question since there is no alternative to breathing air as part of being a human or any other animal for that matter. So there is no real choice to consider here.

Manipulation on the other hand is a matter of choice. The other part of that choice that I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread is influence. Just as with manipulation, there is active and indirect ways that people can influence others. If the title of this thread had read "Should I make a influence on others or not?" Then there would be no issue with the activity in and of itself, but rather a question on what exactly it is, that you try to influence others with.

So to believe that you have to manipulate others, is at best a limiting belief imo. Or simply a lack of nuance to ones way of thinking.

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by ZzzleepingBear

[JosephKnecht]

19 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Yes....always ruining our games lol.

I am only asking questions guys...