Should i Manipulate Others or Not?

[SQAAD]

I've watched Leo's video few years back where he heavily criticizes the pickup community for their manipulations on women.

Now i am confused because it is clear that Leo uses countless of manipulations in his videos to succeed in his goals and advises us to use such manipulations to pick up women. One could argue that Leo would not sit where he is right now if it was not for his clever manipulations and tactics & maneuvers .

I don't know how someone else defines manipulation. I consider myself a very nice guy and i think there is good and bad forms of manipulation. Good forms of manipulation have good effect on you and the others. While the bad forms of manipulation cause suffering to others. 

Just to be alive you have to manipulate every day. Every word you choose to say and in the tone that you say it is a clever manipulatin on your part. If you were 100% genuine and truthful you would not survive well.

So i am not against manipulation unless it is very egotistical and causes misery to others. I think it is super necessary if you wanna succeed in life. Otherwise less intelligent , less conscious people will get ahead of you in life while you are left behind with nothing. Any thoughts??

The reason i am asking is because sometimes i feel bad when i manipulate others. For example i might cause fear to someone to gain his attention otherwise he won't listen to what i have to say. If i don't use these manipulation i will not be nearly as effective and it will probably hurt my survival which i am very scared of..... It is a real challenge... If i do the manipulation , i feel bad and question myself. And  if i don't do the manipulation i am terrified of my survival agenda going down the drain.....

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by SQAAD

[ZzzleepingBear]

I'd say that there are two different kind of manipulations. There is conscious manipulation, and there is unconscious manipulations. If you know that you are manipulating someone, you are then aware of your active choice of using mental leverage working against that person in doing you favours that they otherwise would decline if they knew why you are doing what you do. You are then primarily having a relation with, and taking advantage of their weak spots as that is what keeps the relationship "working".

 

While unconsious manipulation is our own unkown limits when interacting with other people. And so we are primarily drawn to people like ourselves, since a high level of manipulation is not actively a trait that mentally healthy people priortise as they seek a mutual relationship in getting their wills met with others, and not against others. That is not to say that mutual relationships are devoid of any kind of manipulation attempts, but once manipulation attempts are discovered, they will be adressed and called out so there can be a new progress-point that both parties comes to terms with and are aware of inorder to get into a new mutually balanced relation with eachother. So the relationship can be elevated rather than declining as any manipulation comes to light.

[Jannes]

1 hour ago, SQAAD said:

Just to be alive you have to manipulate every day. Every word you choose to say and in the tone that you say it is a clever manipulatin on your part. If you were 100% genuine and truthful you would not survive well.

So i am not against manipulation unless it is very egotistical and causes misery to others. I think it is super necessary if you wanna succeed in life. Otherwise less intelligent , less conscious people will get ahead of you in life while you are left behind with nothing. Any thoughts??

I had the same thoughts recently and I came to a similar conclusion. If I don’t act at least a bit devilish then I will act my devil out unconsciously to get what I want which will lead to way more harm.

1 hour ago, SQAAD said:

I don't know how someone else defines manipulation. I consider myself a very nice guy and i think there is good and bad forms of manipulation.

Having a nice guy ego can be pretty dangerous. You might justify much of your behavior by saying it was out of good intention. 

1 hour ago, SQAAD said:

The reason i am asking is because sometimes i feel bad when i manipulate others. For example i might cause fear to someone to gain his attention otherwise he won't listen to what i have to say.

See that sounds pretty devilish to me. I don’t see why you have to cause fear to get attention and why do you even think that what you have to say is that important that it justifies that you manipulate people? 

1 hour ago, SQAAD said:

If i don't use these manipulation i will not be nearly as effective and it will probably hurt my survival which i am very scared of..... It is a real challenge... If i do the manipulation , i feel bad and question myself. And  if i don't do the manipulation i am terrified of my survival agenda going down the drain.....

Have you integrated your shadow? Would you allow yourself to be angry? Many people who do fighting sport for example are the most peaceful people ever exactly because they know they could defend themself so they don’t feel the need to manipulate people to never come into conflict. 
 

I think I understand you pretty well. I had build a similar identity about being a nice guy.

[SQAAD]

@Jannes

9 minutes ago, Jannes said:

See that sounds pretty devilish to me. I don’t see why you have to cause fear to get attention and why do you even think that what you have to say is that important that it justifies that you manipulate people? 

Have you integrated your shadow? Would you allow yourself to be angry? Many people who do fighting sport for example are the most peaceful people ever exactly because they know they could defend themself so they don’t feel the need to manipulate people to never come into conflict. 
 

I don't want to get into the content of why i had to do it. Let's say that if i did not cause fear to X person, i would risk losing my health. How about that?

Let's say you cause fear to your stupid child because you are terrified of getting contaminated of sick by some checmical because of his ignorance and stupidity...

And yes i allow myself to be angry and have all sorts of emotions. I have not done shadow work . But i journal a lot.

[NoSelfSelf]

@SQAAD I mean you have to manipulate because you either with wrong people(not compatible) or you dont produce enough value for others so they dont care about your ways...

Becoming a value for yourself and telling them how things are upfront like telling girls you see other girls upfront and all the things she should know so there is no need to manipulate if she doesnt like your ways you get rid of her...

Manipulation is easy way out of your problems so they are instant or forcing...

[Jannes]

18 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

@Jannes

I don't want to get into the content of why i had to do it. Let's say that if i did not cause fear to X person, i would risk losing my health. How about that?

Can’t tell if I don’t know the details. There is probably a case where manipulation is the right decision but I don’t know if that’s the case here. 

18 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

Let's say you cause fear to your stupid child because you are terrified of getting contaminated of sick by some checmical because of his ignorance and stupidity...

Idk I think you should trust your child. If you are REALLY serious about it and tell your child the potential consequences of what could happen then I think your child would listen. I mean there are probably some psychopath children plus I am not a parent but deep down I feel like you should trust your child. 

18 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

And yes i allow myself to be angry and have all sorts of emotions. I have not done shadow work . But i journal a lot.

Do you feel like you could confront other people if you had to ?

[SQAAD]

@NoSelfSelf

50 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@SQAAD I mean you have to manipulate because you either with wrong people(not compatible) or you dont produce enough value for others so they dont care about your ways...

Becoming a value for yourself and telling them how things are upfront like telling girls you see other girls upfront and all the things she should know so there is no need to manipulate if she doesnt like your ways you get rid of her...

Manipulation is easy way out of your problems so they are instant or forcing...

No, you have to manipulate in order to get what you want. If you are in position of power or not, you are still being a manipulative 'snake' one way or another. 

For example a speaker may pause after an important statement so he can have an increased effect on his audience. He will not speak 'authentically' as he pleases.

We are all master manipulators.

And by the way, when you are with a girl, watch how many manipulations you use. You might not desire to put that deodorant but you will use it just so you can get into her pants. You will say the right things you learned from others while acting like a Hollywood actor how confident you are.

It's all an act. You can act confident in an instant. Its easy to do.

I doubt there is even such thing as acting authentic when we are all photocopies of others one way or another.

Edited September 3, 2022 by SQAAD

[SQAAD]

@Jannes

28 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Can’t tell if I don’t know the details. There is probably a case where manipulation is the right decision but I don’t know if that’s the case here. 

Idk I think you should trust your child. If you are REALLY serious about it and tell your child the potential consequences of what could happen then I think your child would listen. I mean there are probably some psychopath children plus I am not a parent but deep down I feel like you should trust your child. 

Do you feel like you could confront other people if you had to ?

You don't need the details. The structure is this ''If i don't manipulate something bad might happen to me''. The content is irrelavent. It can be literally Anything you want.

Yes i can confront people.

[Jannes]

3 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

@NoSelfSelf

No, you have to manipulate in order to get what you want. If you are in position of power or not, you are still being a manipulative 'snake' one way or another. 

For example a speaker may pause after an important statement so he can have an increased effect on his audience. He will not speak 'authentically' as he pleases.

We are all master manipulators.

It sounds like you want to get to the absolute. Absolutely everything is Manipulation one way or another. But so is the attempt to not manipulate. 

[r0ckyreed]

7 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

You don't need the details. The structure is this ''If i don't manipulate something bad might happen to me''. The content is irrelavent. It can be literally Anything you want.

Sounds like something Trump or any Devil would say. 

 

Be a leader, not a Devil.

Great leaders are persuasive, influential, and inspirational. They lead with love, wisdom, and selflessness.

Great Devils are great manipulators and are at the forefront great masters at manipulating and deceiving themselves. Devils manipulate because of fear, ignorance, and selfishness.

Edit: The manipulated (selfish) life is not worth living.

Edited September 3, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[ZzzleepingBear]

5 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

you are still being a manipulative 'snake' one way or another. 

Would that be a positive or a bad thing to you then? I assume that you use snake in a symbolic way here. So how do you make it make sense so to speak?

[JosephKnecht]

14 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

No, you have to manipulate in order to get what you want.

How do you know what you want? You might think you want something, but actually want something else.

You may think you want money, but you want security. You may think you want a girlfriend, but you want love.

First, figure out what you TRULY want. 

You can never manipulate someone who is more conscious than you because they can smell your BS.

You can only manipulate those who are less conscious.

"Manipulate" them so that they can realize the things you have realized.  

[Jannes]

 

13 minutes ago, JosephKnecht said:

"Manipulate" them so that they can realize the things you have realized.  

??

[Aaron p]

I think manipulation is a part of life...at the end of the day you can't do anything unless you control something, if Leo hadn't have manipulated his teachings in such a way that my unconscious mind could receieve it, only to later realise [by becoming conscious through his teachings] that I needed it...I would still be lost and unconscious. 

I manipulate my car when I drive to work, I intelligently do and say things that I know will emphasis my positive attributes in an interview. I don't crush anyone else when I do it...it's just how certain parts of nature works. There's obviously corrupt forms of control like big Stalin lol...my mate, but you'll often find that [for example] girls want a guy who leads strongly and who breaks their socially acceptable "walls of modesty" down in a socially calibrated fashion. It's an unspoken requirement that certain guys get and certain guys don't. Girls can't not resist, or they'll endanger their ego of being "non-slutty" and if you don't fight for them (or control/manipulate circumstances intelligently) they'll be pissed off. Lots of girls want a guy who dominated to a socially calibrated degree. finding that Ballance is an art...especially with Intuition.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Aaron p

[NoSelfSelf]

@SQAAD Its not manipulation if you ask directly for what you want no matter if she says no and you lose her..

I act and move how i made rules and ways how i want to move, its called my square, so im not manipulating im acting like i want to no matter if ill fuck or not ,fucking shouldnt be in my mind even, because thats not the point ,point is making moves and im judged how im making my moves nobody has this so you manipulate...even worse you have moves from another guy or people that will never work long term is really bad...

Its another thing that you look for a girl to fuck her to get something from her i dont even think about her im thinking what im gonna do and ill be direct in what im doing and moving where i want it to go and she has every right to say no based on her no im moving on another or see what shes willing to give(no manipulation)...

Ofcourse im not there im actually working on it right now and catching myself...

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by NoSelfSelf

[Manusia]

4 hours ago, JosephKnecht said:

You can never manipulate someone who is more conscious than you because they can smell your BS.

You can only manipulate those who are less conscious.

Yup

[Danioover9000]

@r0ckyreed

5 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

Sounds like something Trump or any Devil would say. 

 

Be a leader, not a Devil.

Great leaders are persuasive, influential, and inspirational. They lead with love, wisdom, and selflessness.

Great Devils are great manipulators and are at the forefront great masters at manipulating and deceiving themselves. Devils manipulate because of fear, ignorance, and selfishness.

Edit: The manipulated (selfish) life is not worth living.

   Assuming, with little to no evidence.

   Assuming being a leader is easier than being a devil. Not everyone will be a leader, because of extra work and time, and other limitations that naturally creates a hierarchy that not everyone can be a leader at the same time.

   Persuasion, influential and inspirational are other characteristics of manipulation, as all leaders have to manipulate one way or the other. In fact, as a finite self, you have to manipulate one way or the other.

   All devils =!= all devils evil. Some devils are good, like the one that does your mailing, or the one that did your roofing, while still believing they are a separate entity from you.

[Danioover9000]

 

5 hours ago, JosephKnecht said:

How do you know what you want? You might think you want something, but actually want something else.

You may think you want money, but you want security. You may think you want a girlfriend, but you want love.

First, figure out what you TRULY want. 

You can never manipulate someone who is more conscious than you because they can smell your BS.

You can only manipulate those who are less conscious.

"Manipulate" them so that they can realize the things you have realized.  

   Manipulations happen when you're aware or not aware of them. Also, most are not educated enough to recognize they are getting coned, and no amount of consciousness can help protect you against a con, other than when a survivor of that con telling you what happened to them. You won't realize you are getting gaslight, until someone that survived it or a past manipulator reveals the gaslighting mechanics.

[Danioover9000]

@SQAAD

8 hours ago, SQAAD said:

I've watched Leo's video few years back where he heavily criticizes the pickup community for their manipulations on women.

Now i am confused because it is clear that Leo uses countless of manipulations in his videos to succeed in his goals and advises us to use such manipulations to pick up women. One could argue that Leo would not sit where he is right now if it was not for his clever manipulations and tactics & maneuvers .

I don't know how someone else defines manipulation. I consider myself a very nice guy and i think there is good and bad forms of manipulation. Good forms of manipulation have good effect on you and the others. While the bad forms of manipulation cause suffering to others. 

Just to be alive you have to manipulate every day. Every word you choose to say and in the tone that you say it is a clever manipulatin on your part. If you were 100% genuine and truthful you would not survive well.

So i am not against manipulation unless it is very egotistical and causes misery to others. I think it is super necessary if you wanna succeed in life. Otherwise less intelligent , less conscious people will get ahead of you in life while you are left behind with nothing. Any thoughts??

The reason i am asking is because sometimes i feel bad when i manipulate others. For example i might cause fear to someone to gain his attention otherwise he won't listen to what i have to say. If i don't use these manipulation i will not be nearly as effective and it will probably hurt my survival which i am very scared of..... It is a real challenge... If i do the manipulation , i feel bad and question myself. And  if i don't do the manipulation i am terrified of my survival agenda going down the drain.....

 

    It depends on one's value systems, cognitive and moral development, personality, states of being, life experiences and other lines of development, worldview, and the type of mind you have and its biases and which sense making apparatus it prefers.

   It may be just a language or semantics issue. Whenever I hear or read 'manipulation', or 'exploitation', I get negative connotations in my mind. However, If I hear or read the words 'rhetoric', 'optics', 'persuasion', 'compelling' and similar words, I have much less negative thinking and feelings of those words versus manipulation, exploitation, blackmail, coercion and so on.

   I think you may have muddy meaning generation, conflating additional meanings to the word 'manipulation' that it doesn't have itself. For me, there's linguistic distinction between higher forms and higher conscious manipulations versus lower conscious forms of manipulation. If you asked me what lower forms of manipulation means to me, blackmail, coercion and threatening are obvious low manipulation tactics. Higher forms of manipulations are white lies, providing reassurance despite how grim and dark a situation is, or creating a compelling vision for yourself, to self manipulate yourself from lower states of being towards higher states of being.

[NoSelfSelf]

@Danioover9000 for me manipulation is when someone doesnt want to do something and you make them do what you want, by some means or you think less of yourself so you need to hide behind something to manipulate...

So i dont see how being influential is manipulation only if you force it on others ...

Woman being attractive is manipulation then because when someone come in front of a woman shes manipulating him with her beauty or something ??

Edited September 3, 2022 by NoSelfSelf