Poor working memory

[Max_V]

Of all the IQ tests and similar types of diagnostical tools I've used, what most often comes back for me as a bottleneck to other intellectual function, is my working memory. Due to this, my verbal IQ and performace IQ are quite far apart. Most psychologists I've spoken to have told me that the current data mostly holds that working memory is pretty static and there isn't much that suggests a possibility of improving it. 

Since this forum contains a lot of people that work in different sectors and expiriments a ton, I was wondering if any of you have suggestions as to what I could look at.

Thanks

[Max_V]

This video on the topic seems quite interesting. I do think my brain has issues with dopamine function. Why? Because every time I do or consume something that increases dopamine, my working memory problems eleviate somewhat. Now, I might be linking things together wrongfully, I'm a layman so that's certainly possible, but it's at least a hunch that deserves looking at.

Are there any sustainable ways of increasing dopamine function?

Edited September 3, 2022 by Max_V

[Michael569]

Andrew Hubberman has an entire 2hr video on dopamine. Worth watching, excellent content 

[Carl-Richard]

Meditation improves executive functioning, a part of working memory. Heavy weight training decreases age-related deterioation of IQ.

[thisintegrated]

Bad working memory = under-reliance on memory = over-reliance on the intellect

I think in some ways it can be an advantage.  But if you wanna improve it then I think that's definitely possible.

Meditation + manifestation.

[Max_V]

@Carl-Richard I do both of these and they indeed have helped a lot. Both things I really notice increase the performance of my working memory

@Michael569 ohh, will definitely give that a listen! ty

Edited September 3, 2022 by Max_V

[Max_V]

12 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Bad working memory = under-reliance on memory = over-reliance on the intellect

Sorry, but this makes no sense to me at all

Edited September 3, 2022 by Max_V

[AtheisticNonduality]

2 minutes ago, Max_V said:

Sorry, but this makes no sense to me at all

Basically he means intellect = verbal IQ and memory = performance IQ, which is an oversimplification. But the main idea is that logic and memory aren't the same thing + logic > memory.

[Max_V]

@AtheisticNonduality I see. Well the problem is, I cannot use any of my greater verbal skills well if I don't have the working memory to hold it

[Ulax]

You could have ADHD, you could also have dissociation, you could also just have a particular genetic make up.

Whatever the answer will require very different solutions, imo. If you have ADHD, I'd recommend getting answers from only neurodivergent folks or those adequately educated about ADHD. I wouldn't rule out medication if that is the case. If you have dissociation, I'd look into specific resources on that.

Also, from what I understand, you deal with mental health issues. How does that present? Do you have a diagnosis that you could tell me?

Edited September 3, 2022 by Ulax

[Carl-Richard]

59 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Bad working memory = under-reliance on memory = over-reliance on the intellect

I think in some ways it can be an advantage.  But if you wanna improve it then I think that's definitely possible.

Meditation + manifestation.

In many ways, working memory is intellect. While working memory isn't necessarily limited to logical operations, working memory decides how computationally dense your logic is (e.g. 2+2=4 vs. a+xy(bc^2)=4). When short-term memory changed name to working memory, it went from being thought of as a storage space to a working space. When you say "memory", you're thinking about long-term memory.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[thisintegrated]

44 minutes ago, Max_V said:

Sorry, but this makes no sense to me at all

The kids in school with good memory just memorize the times tables and formulas and whatever else they need.  The ones with a poor memory end up having to work out everything from scratch every time.  If you're engaging/challenging your intellect 10x more than others do, then your intellect will be more developed.

 

12 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

In many ways, working memory is intellect. When short-term memory changed name to working memory, it went from being thought of as a storage space to a working space. When you say "memory", you're thinking about long-term memory.

They're strongly connected, but not the same thing.  If someone is "wise" that doesn't mean they necessarily have a good working memory, and wisdom is mostly just a mature intellect.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, thisintegrated said:

The kids in school with good memory just memorize the times tables and formulas and whatever else they need.  The ones with a poor memory end up having to work out everything from scratch every time.

That is long-term memory.

 

1 hour ago, thisintegrated said:

They're strongly connected, but not the same thing.  If someone is "wise" that doesn't mean they necessarily have a good working memory, and wisdom is mostly just a mature intellect.

It's like you're maximally wrong  The concept of "wisdom" is often reserved to that which is not possible to be articulated by the intellect and which increases through life experience, and without long-term memory, you can't learn from experience, and thus you can't become wise.

"Intellect" is conceptual thinking: logical capacity + conceptual knowledge (+ creativity + intuition), and that also requires decent long-term memory, or else you can't retain conceptual knowledge. Intellect is also not the same as "intelligence", which goes beyond conceptual thinking, e.g. things like social, emotional and kinesthetic intelligence.

[Nilsi]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

That is long-term memory.

 

It's like you're maximally wrong  The concept of "wisdom" is often reserved to that which is not possible to be articulated by the intellect and which increases through life experience, and without long-term memory, you can't learn from experience, and thus you can't become wise.

"Intellect" is conceptual thinking: logical capacity + conceptual knowledge (+ creativity + intuition), and that also requires decent long-term memory, or else you can't retain conceptual knowledge. Intellect is also not the same as "intelligence", which goes beyond conceptual thinking, e.g. things like social, emotional and kinesthetic intelligence.

Schmachtenberger made the distinction once of intellect being computable and wisdom being non-algorithmic. I found it quite helpful.

[thisintegrated]

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

That is long-term memory.

People tend to rely more heavily on either memory or logic.  An external world of events/ideas, or that born from within.

If someone has a good working memory then it's likely they're a memory focused type.

 

Quote

It's like you're maximally wrong  The concept of "wisdom" is often reserved to that which is not possible to be articulated by the intellect and which increases through life experience, and without long-term memory, you can't learn from experience, and thus you can't become wise.

How is wisdom impossible to articulate with the intellect?  Wisdom is gained through repeatedly overcoming intellectual challenges.  Greens might like the idea of communism, but once they intellectually understand the problem with this they become "wiser".  They become less likely to jump to conclusions in the future, and although this is "wisdom" it's completely intellectual.

 

10 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Schmachtenberger made the distinction once of intellect being computable and wisdom being non-algorithmic. I found it quite helpful.

It's only non-algorithmic from a limited point of view which is unable to understand the complexity of the "wisdom-algorithms".

One event causes one conclusion, while another event may swing that conclusion the opposite way.  After enough of these, a balance is reached, and that balance is what we consider wisdom.  No firm/emotional conclusions, just a balanced understanding.

Edited September 3, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Nilsi]

1 minute ago, thisintegrated said:

People tend to rely more heavily on either memory or logic.  An external world of events/ideas, or that born from within.

If someone has a good working memory then it's likely they're a memory focused type.

 

How is wisdom impossible to articulate with the intellect?  Wisdom is gained through repeatedly overcoming intellectual challenges.  Greens might like the idea of communism, but once they intellectually understand the problem with this they become "wiser".  They become less likely to jump to conclusions in the future, and although this is "wisdom" it's completely intellectual.

I would say wisdom results from an interaction of your working memory, your long term memory and your Umwelt, all feeding back information into each other, in such a way that you see clearly and are able to make appropriate choices effortlessly. I would say intellect is less than that.

[AtheisticNonduality]

@Max_V The "working memory" portions of the tests usually have random strings of numbers, insignificant geometric shapes, and whatnot. If your memory can't take in that yet can take in something of the same complexity but with more meaning, more useful associations, then there probably is not that much concern to be had. Theoretically I should have a bad working memory because I scored low on the same sections; practically I have a good memory, both short- and long-term, so the appraisal is unwarranted and certainly grounded in the uselessness of the random strings of numbers, the random shapes, the lists of words forwards and backwards, etc.

Memory = information retention.

Memorization (as a tried and conscious process) = information retention based on intention/effort.

A lot of that effortful intention and intension will come from the importance of memories, so biographical or meaningful imprints on information need to be seen everywhere. There are no longer random strings of numbers but encoded patterns to find, there are no more geometric visual patterns of insignificance but of the highest and most significant light possible to dwell in awareness, and all information is seen to be synonymous with the holding places of meaning and associative direction . . . potentially.

Basically there are two routes to take, intellectually. One of them is heavy, information-dense, and immense as a state of maximization. The other is lightweight, efficient, and minimalist. Both have their uses, and you should take yourself to understanding them. Say, the first approach might read by studying cover-to-cover massively developed tomes; the second might speed-read, skim, and pick the most substantial parts out of multiple books per day. The first might train itself to heavily process and render memorized and complete any information and allow it to be eidetically retrievable permanently or temporarily; the second might discard most of the details and keep memorable only the key core points, using those cores to access the other nodes in the web like holding on to the importances like large circular bases and then branching out if at all necessary. The first has more; the second does more.

Just now, thisintegrated said:

How is wisdom impossible to articulate with the intellect?  Wisdom is gained through repeatedly overcoming intellectual challenges.  Greens might like the idea of communism, but once they intellectually understand the problem with this they become "wiser".  They become less likely to jump to conclusions in the future, and although this is "wisdom" it's completely intellectual.

I see wisdom as an emotional filter that sorts through what the intellect brings up.

[thisintegrated]

Just now, Nilsi said:

I would say wisdom results from an interaction of your working memory, your long term memory and your Umwelt, all feeding back information into each other, in such a way that you see clearly and are able to make appropriate choices effortlessly. I would say intellect is less than that.

You don't really access long term memory when deciding what's wise or not, though.  It just comes from intuition.

[Nilsi]

1 minute ago, thisintegrated said:

You don't really access long term memory when deciding what's wise or not, though.  It just comes from intuition.

It's still entangled, no? Good intuition comes from experience and long term memory is what we call that experience.

[Carl-Richard]

14 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

People tend to rely more heavily on either memory or logic.  An external world of events/ideas, or that born from within.

If someone has a good working memory then it's likely they're a memory focused type.

You have to think of the working memory as the main stage of the mind. The mind is a memory machine: it takes in, sorts through and stores impressions. Conceptual thinking is done in the working memory, long-term memory recall is done in the working memory, visualizing things is done in the working memory, counting, rehearsing, and talking to yourself is done in the working memory.

 

22 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

How is wisdom impossible to articulate with the intellect?

Because smart people can act unwise, and so-called dumb people can act wise. Wisdom displays itself in every situation, in every aspect of your life, and the complexity of that cannot be captured by linear lines of logical reasoning.

 

25 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Wisdom is gained through repeatedly overcoming intellectual challenges.

Overcoming life challenges, not just intellectual challenges.

 

26 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Greens might like the idea of communism, but once they intellectually understand the problem with this they become "wiser".  They become less likely to jump to conclusions in the future, and although this is "wisdom" it's completely intellectual.

One can pretend to intellectually understand the problem in hindsight, but it takes the collective wisdom of history and trial-and-error for that understanding to be revealed. Also, if you experience the fall of communism first-hand, by being inside of it and living your life under communism every day, you'll be much wiser about the reason for why it fell than somebody who came to a similar conclusion intellectually. The intellect is very fallible and can jump to unwise conclusions. Just look at how many differing opinions exist between different intellectuals.

 

18 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

You don't really access long term memory when deciding what's wise or not, though.  It just comes from intuition.

You're melting my brain.