5 meo breakthrough, is this it?

[Holymoly]

On 23/09/2022 at 10:17 PM, Leo Gura said:

Yes. If you care about knowing consciousness.

People who do not do psychedelics do not understand consciousness. Why should they? Nowhere is it written that you should. Your brain chemistry is the ultimate roadblock. That should not be so surprising. After all, you cannot fly like a bird simply because you weren't born with wings. And if meditation works, it works by altering your brain chemistry. Just not suffciently enough to fully unlock your mind.

How about like ramana maharshi? yoyu've said in the past that he's deeply awake 

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Holymoly said:

How about like ramana maharshi? yoyu've said in the past that he's deeply awake 

He's awake in the classical sense, but that doesn't mean he explored the crazy things consciousness can do. Maybe he did, but I haven't really heard him talk about it. He kept it very simple.

Being awake is not the same thing as exploring all the possibilities of consciousness. Meditation is not going to allow you to explore the most interesting aspects of consciousness. It's too basic and simple.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Leo Gura

[axiom]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Being awake is not the same thing as exploring all the possibilities of consciousness. Meditation is not going to allow you to explore the most interesting aspects of consciousness. It's too basic and simple.

Good distinction. 

Awakening is the recognition that all appearance is on a level playing field. All made of the same stuff. 

The appearance is a labyrinthine diamond mine, each deeper cavern filled with more jewels than the last. But go deep enough for long enough, the way back is forgotten and the entrance sealed over. This is not good or bad, but it is. 

[UnbornTao]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

He's awake in the classical sense, but that doesn't mean he explored the crazy things consciousness can do. Maybe he did, but I haven't really heard him talk about it. He kept it very simple.

Being awake is not the same thing as exploring all the possibilities of consciousness. Meditation is not going to allow you to explore the most interesting aspects of consciousness. It's too basic and simple.

Knowing what consciousness is vs exploring altered states: Is that what you're talking about?

Seems to me like it is.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

Knowing what consciousness is vs exploring altered states: Is that what you're talking about?

Seems to me like it is.

You can't appreciate what consciousness truly is without exploring its craziest states.

This is what those meditators mislead you about. Simply having a few awakenings into Emptiness is not a serious understanding of what consciousness is. It's like saying you know what sex is but you've only had sex in the missionary position. Actually you have a very poor idea of what sex is.

To understand and appreciate consciousness requires experiencing it's most radical forms and its edges. When you become a glass of orange juice, then you can appreciate what consciousness is. It is not enough to say, "Oh I can already imagine that so I don't need to experience it." No! To understand God you MUST experience all its possibilities. Not in theory, but actually.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Leo Gura What about meditation experiences that are more psychcedelic in nature? I have issues maintaining health, yet when I am fully healthy and can workout I can have crazy energetic experiences that are similar to the one NN-DMT experience I have the NN-DMT experience feels more alien, yet it often feels like heavy ego / dark knight stuff that needs to be proccessed for example dark room retreats. 

Similar with LSD I get tiny tastes of love, emptiness, nothingness and a lot of internal relative insight and I feel I become more whole/open and clean overall in terms of how I conduct my life after some integration approx. What can I make out meditative experiences that surpass psychdelic experiences? Would you for example in the same situation continue to pursue meditation seriously? When it has such a dramatic affect that it can be more intense than any psychdelic you can take. It's like my brain is made for meditation and psychdelics are the deepst layer you can enter, that is why I have so much respect, I did not meet many people who have the same kind of experiences, they are similar, yet never as intense. I have a big/huge ego, so I know I consistently implore what is consciouness and choose deliberately teachers/gurus who go and see beyond the edge of a plate.

The main issue I have is physical health mostly, not even that much mental. Why for example the comment you made about merging, I can get tastes of merging while meditating like I become the orange/juice/rock/bird/object in 3D space, yet with psychcedelics transforming into something else becomes way way more real, I once posted a report saying I basically merged with a part of nature I became literally the bird outside chirping. While meditating on LSD for hours. You wrote to me I am paraprhrasing: "Nice work tasting the tail of the ox " in a bit more cheeky manner, is that what is meant with consciouness? The pure fabric so to speak that gives rise to everything? Ground zero? Or am I completely of here, as I tasted so many different flavours it's not easy to make distinctions and continue the work when there are so many silos, instead of wholes. 

I am just sometimes to afraid to go off into the deep end and never comeback lol. 

Edited September 25, 2022 by ValiantSalvatore

[Sincerity]

31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You can't appreciate what consciousness truly is without exploring its craziest states.

This is what those meditators mislead you about. Simply having a few awakenings into Emptiness is not a serious understanding of what consciousness is. It's like saying you know what sex is but you've only had sex in the missionary position. Actually you have a very poor idea of what sex is.

To understand and appreciate consciousness requires experiencing it's most radical forms and its edges. When you become a glass of orange juice, then you can appreciate what consciousness is. It is not enough to say, "Oh I can already imagine that so I don't need to experience it." No! To understand God you MUST experience all its possibilities. Not in theory, but actually.

So do you recommend taking salvia after all for the purpose of understanding crazy states of consciousness? Would you be willing to take more?

Just asking. Not planning in the near future.

[Terell Kirby]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Being awake is not the same thing as exploring all the possibilities of consciousness.

Feedback: I think you can make this distinction a bit more in your analysis of teachers and teachings that are awake and not awake.

A feel as though a good bit of us assume both of these are the same thing. Addressing this also adds more clarity on how psychedelics play a part in all this and its significance.

[Terell Kirby]

37 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

To understand God you MUST experience all its possibilities.

Is this really a MUST? Who's defining these parameters?

Have you experienced all of the possibilities?

[Sincerity]

15 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

Is this really a MUST? Who's defining these parameters?

Have you experienced all of the possibilities?

Also, what is "all" possibilities. Like a finite amount?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

@Leo Gura What about meditation experiences that are more psychcedelic in nature? I have issues maintaining health, yet when I am fully healthy and can workout I can have crazy energetic experiences that are similar to the one NN-DMT experience I have the NN-DMT experience feels more alien, yet it often feels like heavy ego / dark knight stuff that needs to be proccessed for example dark room retreats.

Yes, those are helpful. But they are also quite limited because they are hard to produce in a controlled manner and you are still limited by your default neurotransmitters.

1 hour ago, Sincerity said:

So do you recommend taking salvia after all for the purpose of understanding crazy states of consciousness? Would you be willing to take more?

Just asking. Not planning in the near future.

I would not recommend it for most people. But for those who are very serious and willing to accept full responsibility for the dangers, it is a powerful tool.

1 hour ago, Terell Kirby said:

Feedback: I think you can make this distinction a bit more in your analysis of teachers and teachings that are awake and not awake.

A feel as though a good bit of us assume both of these are the same thing. Addressing this also adds more clarity on how psychedelics play a part in all this and its significance.

Noted.

1 hour ago, Terell Kirby said:

Is this really a MUST? Who's defining these parameters?

How else can God know itself unless it experiences ALL of itself?

If you think about it logically for a minute you'll see that God must want to experience all of itself because this is necessary for God to be Omniscient. You cannot be fully Omniscient without experiencing all of yourself.

Quote

Have you experienced all of the possibilities?

No, but at least I am exploring them, unlike most people, who would rather invent excuses.

If you love consciousness you should want to explore all of it.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[ValiantSalvatore]

37 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, those are helpful. But they are also quite limited because they are hard to produce in a controlled manner and you are still limited by your default neurotransmitters.

I doubt this a lot, when I see some extreme athlethes/gifted spiritual people I think you can controllably produce and procure some of these experiences in a more serious manner, I just am unsure for example how to become better at psychedelic exploration besides using psychedelics, if you know what I mean in terms of consciouness and I want to be able to do dark room retreats and basically "abuse" my neurochemistry a bit to see what is possible, yet the point is the more I get deeper into this, how long does it take to stablize a state and what to do post-integration? 

Is going about life and not stretching the envelope then the right choice? Some of these integrations are quite rough. How used can you get to psychdelic states post-trip? What does your experience so far show? I get a bit confused as acutalized.org changes a lot in terms of Leo changing lol and just content/structure/goals/teaching etc. Sometimes I do get lost. In terms of what to do, as it's so much and there is a best solution for everyone in my opinion...it just can differ a lot. 

For example I work through my shadow a lot through using LSD, and I could commit to therapy etc. Holotropic breathwork etc. Yet, LSD and and DMT till now seem the most powerful. I only have on 1 baby-nano DMT trip and 25-36 approx LSD trips.

The point is sometimes I go through so much shadow others become so trigger and I become free, I am unsure if this is progress or if I am deluding myself. Just by sheer knowledge and experience. 

This is why I personally feel DMT is a bit overrated as you can do the same in a dark room etc. and those natural experiences I produce through hard work were more intense and lasting than the "medicine" so to speak.. in my experience... Hope the questions are fine! No hostility projected really, I just feel sometimes I ask to many questions, yet I need this for clarification. As I plan a lot to find a best-sized solution for me. At best also for others..

Edited September 25, 2022 by ValiantSalvatore

[Leo Gura]

@ValiantSalvatore Certainly manual work has its value in rewiring your mind.

My only point is that there is only some much that you can shift your consciousness through manual work because your neurotransmitters basically stay the same.

No amount of manual work will get you to a breakthrough salvia level of consciousness. This does not mean your manual work is bad. It just means it's limited.

Think of it like working on your car. You can improve it in any ways, but you will never modify your car enough to explore the moon.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Leo Gura I see. That is interesting lol. 

[bambi]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, those are helpful. But they are also quite limited because they are hard to produce in a controlled manner and you are still limited by your default neurotransmitters.

I would not recommend it for most people. But for those who are very serious and willing to accept full responsibility for the dangers, it is a powerful tool.

Noted.

How else can God know itself unless it experiences ALL of itself?

If you think about it logically for a minute you'll see that God must want to experience all of itself because this is necessary for God to be Omniscient. You cannot be fully Omniscient without experiencing all of yourself.

No, but at least I am exploring them, unlike most people, who would rather invent excuses.

If you love consciousness you should want to explore all of it.

How can you explore ALL of itself, it has no end lol, whenever you think you've finished your exactly infinitesimelly small at the start point lol

Your narrative here is of a unintelligent God, there are some things that aren't worth exploring, you realise that right, even you Leo as a finite form, realise you dont want to explore some parts

 

[amanen]

11 minutes ago, bambi said:

How can you explore ALL of itself, it has no end lol, whenever you think you've finished your exactly infinitesimelly small at the start point lol

Your narrative here is of a unintelligent God, there are some things that aren't worth exploring, you realise that right, even you Leo as a finite form, realise you dont want to explore some parts

 

God is beyond time, so in the eternal present moment it already is exploring / has explored everything. All the infinite endless possibilities are in the present moment, and God has paradoxically already went through them, in fact infinitely many times. This is because God is beyond time, and everything that could be explored is in the present moment. So everything is simultaneously explored. All the infinite possibilities that do not ever end, are in fact already explored in the present moment, because there is no time to constrain God, nor linearity. And it goes on forever. Every experience goes on forever. It's hard to convey what I am trying to say, but because it is infinite it can explore itself totally. It isn't like a linear process.

Although I do agree that there are some things worth not exploring, even for God. For example I don't think God would explore some hypothetical universe that is akin to complete TV static with no intelligent patterns in it, that is just not a part of what God is. It wouldn't create something like that. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, bambi said:

How can you explore ALL of itself, it has no end lol, whenever you think you've finished your exactly infinitesimelly small at the start point lol

Obviously God is in a neverending process of self-exploration. You can think of God as a verb rather than a noun.

Quote

Your narrative here is of a unintelligent God, there are some things that aren't worth exploring, you realise that right, even you Leo as a finite form, realise you dont want to explore some parts

It's all worth exploring if you drop your biases.

The finite Leo does not want to explore all parts, but the infinite God does.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[billiesimon]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I would not recommend it for most people. But for those who are very serious and willing to accept full responsibility for the dangers, it is a powerful tool.

Yes, I totally underline this, about Salvia.

Salvia Divinorum can actually be a powerful nondual psychedelic, but it needs to be understood and mastered. I've done several light and medium trips with it. It has nice healing powers. But the best part is how it makes you realize how everything in the universe is "in your head", because that's the feeling that you get.
The entire universe is some kind of content inside the context of your "metaphysical head". No other psych has given me this kind of insight. Really shocking.