If Everything is Perfect, Why Meditate? (And more)

[Consilience]

Hello Actualized.org, 

I was recently pm'd questions regarding meditation and felt like the answer may help others, so I made this post. I've included the original questions and answered each one by one. There is a lot here and a lot more nuance I missed, but the post was already getting quite long so hopefully this is sufficient. Happy to further elaborate in the comments. 

 

On 8/24/2022 at 10:00 AM, InfinityBeats said:

Hey man, do you have any advice for managing physical discomfort, specifically fatigue?

I think I've gotten really good at managing emotions, where I can either accept the feeling and there is sort of a sense of "the bottom falling out" from the feeling and it just drops through me and dissolves, or, I can just make my mind think a different thought which then elicits a new, more seemingly pleasurable emotion so that I don't feel the negative one, but when it comes to physical feelings, I can't seem to make them just dissolve like I can with emotions.

To start, there are three main strategies when dealing with physical discomfort which of course applies to fatigue. 

1. Who is uncomfortable?

Become extremely clear on who/what is experiencing fatigue. Who exactly is the one "fatigued"? Of course you've probably heard many times "no one." But what does that actually mean? What is the nature of the thing experiencing the fatigue? This is where spiritual fantasy and bullshit flies out the window. Because until there is extreme clarity on this point, physical discomfort will continue being a problem.

When it is recognized the fatigue or discomfort literally cannot touch who you really are or what you really are, both become significantly less meaningful and our relationship with painful sensations, in whatever form, permanently shifts.

The practice of self inquiry helps here.

Technique #1: Self Inquiry 

 

2. Craving, Aversion, Purification, Enlightenment

Let go of stories about the sensations of fatigue (or discomfort). Often times, the degree of the fatigue we are feeling is reinforced by the beliefs and unconscious/unspoken stories we're spinning about the sensations of fatigue. Without the belief needing to manifest through language, we interpret the sensations of fatigue through a deeply unconscious conceptual framework. This framework then reinforces the implicit, unconscious, and unspoken beliefs we have about the sensations, reinforcing whatever it is we believe. In this way, a small amount of fatigue or discomfort can spin out of control into a larger problem. 

To get really grounded, this #2 manifests in the emotional body as craving and aversion, which are defined as the pushing and pulling on experience. 

We experience a little fatigue --> We have a story about being tired --> Aversion towards the fatigue --> Fatigue intensifies because of aversion --> etc. We've now created a negative feedback loop. 

To get out of this loop requires mindfulness, discrimination about what is craving/aversion (a symptom of our beliefs) and what is the raw sensations (fatigue/discomfort). When we can sort this out using mindfulness, we bring equanimity to the craving/aversion which "purifies" it. This purification literally starts to purify the mind of the craving/aversion such that the mind begins to experience less and less of this mental activity. 
Two subpoints about this. Literally by paying attention and discrimination the craving/aversion vs. raw sensations of fatigue, we "purify" it out of the mind. It's actually that simple. Deceptively simple. Face the craving/aversion head. 

Where are these sensations of craving and aversion appearing? Within the fatigue itself, utterly entangled and undifferentiated from the fatigue. You need to untangle both, see both clearly. 

2.i

All craving/aversion manifests because of an ignorance about the nature of reality. This is why classical buddhism defines complete enlightenment as the ending of suffering, suffering is essentially craving/aversion. If one where to truly see into the nature of how things really are, the mind would not crave or be averse to anything. Only equanimity would remain. Yet because we hold certain beliefs/conceptual frameworks in the emotional body from ignorance, craving/aversion arise.

2.ii 

As this purification continues to take place over the days, months, years, and decades of formal meditation practice, fatigue actually becomes a source of bliss and believe it or not, energy. When the mind no longer fights with reality, all that's left is the energetic actuality or fatigue's reality. Fatigue is a form, is a manifestation of existence, is a reflection of god - all form is simply a composition of energy, a dynamic flux of impermanence. 

The best way to work on point 2 is Vipassana meditation, I would specifically recommend Shinzen Young's See Hear Feel technique. 

Technique #2: See Hear Feel

#3 Energy Cultivation

It is also possible to cultivate energy using specific meditation techniques. This can sometime manifest as kundalini, as a more sensitive energy body, as tingling sensations permeating various subtle energy channels in the body, or like a furnace in the dantian energy center. By cultivating this pranic energy, you literally start to have more energy on demand. Rather than recontextualizing the fatigue in #1, purifying the aversion to fatigue in #2, we're actively engaged in combating fatigue in #3 through this energy cultivation. 

My most recently meditation retreat, I was formally practicing around 14 hours a day, informally the rest of the day, and only sleeping 4 hours per day. I did this for 1 week and was focusing on energy cultivation the entire week. By day 4, I had an overflow of excess energy, enormous unknown reservoirs had opened up filling me with levels of energy as though I was peaking on LSD except enormously cleaner, purer, and more harmonized. It challenged everything I thought I knew about the body, mind, and vitality. 

The technique I used was simple,

Focus on the breath sensations in the stomach. 

The inhalation process was natural, without any volition, will, or agency - a totally surrendered inhalation that was as shallow or deep as the body wanted.

The exhalation process was extended and powerful - I would balance prolonging my exhalation all the while keeping the exhalation forceful. Imagine a long, forceful, slow, peaceful breath - these are the kinds of factors we're balance. 

As you use this technique more and more, it not only cultivates energy that stays with you throughout the day, you can return to it whenever you need AND it begins to become the normal breathing pattern when using any meditation technique, thereby facilitating a more energized practice overall. 

Technique #3: Extended Exhalation, Breath Concentration

-

The balance of all three of these will address the fatigue. All three of these points have enormous depth with how far you can take them yet each provides immediate results.
 

Quote

For example, if I'm meditating, and I get tired and my body starts feeling extremely heavy, and maybe my neck starts hurting, and I start thinking

"if I'm meditating because I ultimately want to feel happy and at peace, why don't I just stop doing this and lay down where I will immediately find the peace and happiness that I'm looking for?" 

or, "if I'm searching for peace, happiness, and joy, and I really don't see any joy in sitting to meditate right now, why would I do that? Because it apparently will bring me more happiness in the future? That's just a thought occurring right now though, why would I entertain that? Isn't that just a distraction keeping me from accepting that I'm already happy right now?" 

If you are searching for emotional excitation, emotional stimulation, the bubbly, pleasurable feelings of happiness many people define as happiness, then yes and no. On the one hand, any sort of fixation you have on achieving a particular state can backfire. Yet on the other hand, the ability to generate these bubbly, pleasurable feelings is possible with shamatha meditation and is a skill I would highly recommend (technique #3 above is shamatha meditation by the way). However, the only way to successfully generate these emotions on demand is to be totally at peace when them not arising. If you're clinging to the generation of these sensations, you'll most likely fail. As you train your concentration with breath meditation (technique #3), happiness, joy, pleasure, deep calm ease are all side effects. Is this enlightenment? No. Indispensable tools? Yes. 

Pro tip: Hold a soft buddha smile as you formally practice and throughout the day. You'll be happier, the bubbly pleasurable kind. 

Now here's the thing, if you knew you were already happy, if you were awakened to the kind of non-dual nature of absolute happiness, you wouldn't mind sitting and doing nothing. The suffering you're experiencing as you sit is a tangible symptom of your unhappiness and ignorance about the nature of reality (see #2 above) as well as ignorance of your true nature (see #1 above). Hence, this is why you should practice. To actually awakening, not slip into beliefs about awakening. 

To say "why don't I just stop doing this and lay down where I will immediately find the peace and happiness that I'm looking for?" is like a drug addict using a chemical to relieve withdrawal symptoms. A bit of an extreme analogy, but the fundamental principle is the same. Meditation practice is highlighting a dissatisfaction you have with reality and rather than facing it with the light of mindfulness awareness to see its truth and thereby purifying the dissatisfaction, the mind wants to turn towards distractions that offer a temporary relief. 

There is no guarantee life will give you an opportunity to distract yourself in the moment of great pain, in the future. In all likelihood, the most painful, tragic day of your life has not yet occurred and when that day comes, there will be no bed to go lay out to ease the pain. The only thing you'll have is the quality of the mind, the depth of consciousness's awakening. 

 

Quote

I guess it just feels like it's not worth it to face physical discomfort in times when it can be avoided, especially when sometimes life brings it upon me in a way that can't be avoided and then I can treat it like a practice then, but why would I go out of my way to bring more of that to myself? You've obviously been through a lot given how much you've meditated but like... why? Isn't that kind of drive just powered by seeking energy which ultimately ends up being counterproductive and distracting from the satisfaction of the present moment? 

The first sentence's logic is entirely backwards, in my opinion. When pain cannot be avoided, that is when it matters most how much we've purified the mind. Not just because we'll suffer less as a result of past training, but because the ability to make clear, wise, and compassionate decisions that affect others matters. Furthermore, sometime's and many times, unavoidable pain is the worst kind of pain. If we have sufficiently purified the mind and seen into our true nature, unavoidable pain is not actually productive, or helpful for our practice. 

- 

The bold only applies when seekers have poor teachers, poor practices, or are not actually serious about discovering the truth. In reality, the wisest and most effective forms of seeking are completely selfless. Seeking energy does not require a self. In fact, because there is not a self, seeking is not grounded in being a self. Therefore, when the illusion of self is seen through, only then does the real seeking begin. The illusion of self contracts and contorts the seeking energy which can create dissatisfaction yes. But when the seeking energy's source and nature is experienced, it is allowed to manifest without resistance and is WAY more effective. 

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water here. 

Quote

I feel like I've been stuck in this position for months because even typing this message out feels kind of pointless when I can just ignore these thoughts and try to feel satisfied instead, but my intuition is telling me there is something I'm missing.

I would offer the possibility that what you're missing is a clarity around how meditation works and a lack of depth in practice. Which is totally fine! The fact is, to find real peace, to find the truth about existence, is going to take real work, not fantasy, or belief. This path demands 24/7 mindfulness, 24/7 contemplation, 24/7 prayer, it's not something we pick up and put down based on our feelings, our states, or our emotions, and is not something we can afford to put down when things get hard.

To really see serious results of practice requires 1 - 2+ hours per day and a minimum of 1 week long meditation retreat per year with a good teacher. This is basically scapping by though. 

Therefore, if you have not done a meditation retreat sign up for one immediately. Shinzen is doing an online zoom retreat Oct. 22 - 29th, would highly recommend training with him while you still have the chance. 

If you've already done a retreat in the past, sign up for your next one immediately. After you've finished a retreat, immediately sign up for your next one. 

-

This all being said, sometimes there will be times when you feel the need to soften practice, to ease up on the intensity. Flow, enjoy life, be slow and have faith in not only God, but in your self, have faith there are no mistakes and you are exactly where you need to be and only where you could be. 

I hope this helps my friend. Hopefully this helps some others in the community as well. 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Consilience

[Arthogaan]

Great summary in one place. Thank you. Inspired me to up my daily amount of meditation.

[Consilience]

1 hour ago, Arthogaan said:

Great summary in one place. Thank you. Inspired me to up my daily amount of meditation.

??❤️

[peanutspathtotruth]

Great post, thank you both for sharing ??

Did you organize your own retreat to practice 14h formally each day? Most bookable places I see around here are maybe 5-7h a day, but I haven't done too much research yet - I'd love to hear your suggestions.

Can you expand on how the Samatha practice with the exhale works.. I don't really get the exhale. Michael Taft often says to prolong the exhale but somehow it feels like it would get me out of the meditative state. I'm currently doing samatha on the heart center or spiritual heart (on the right), but before have done belly breathing as well. I'm not sure which to favor yet, do you have experience in both?

[Consilience]

11 hours ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

Did you organize your own retreat to practice 14h formally each day? Most bookable places I see around here are maybe 5-7h a day, but I haven't done too much research yet - I'd love to hear your suggestions.

This was at MAPLE lead by Soryu Forall. Technically there's a 3 hour exhortation (dude is very long winded), but one of the "techniques" for how to listen to an exhortation is to keep up a meditation technique and trust whatever needs to be received from the communication, will come through. This was the approach I used. Yeah MAPLE is intense af, but that's part of why I went. I would HIGHLY recommend it if you're looking for an in person retreat. For online retreats that are intense, Shinzen Young. His zoom retreats are around 8 - 10 hours per day of formal practice plus whatever self practice you do. Shinzen and Soryu both emphasize that when in retreat, you should be practicing 24/7, even in your sleep. 

Edit: I would also recommend Cheng Hsin Contemplation Intensives if you're looking for a more active form of practice that's also extremely intense. The C.I.'s are around 13 hours a day of practice when it's all said and done, but again, Brendan and Peter both stress 24/7 contemplation. 

 

11 hours ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

Can you expand on how the Samatha practice with the exhale works.. I don't really get the exhale. Michael Taft often says to prolong the exhale but somehow it feels like it would get me out of the meditative state.

For me it feels like I'm "giving" energy out into the world. So there's a very subtle visualization of pushing energy out as I exhale. The exhale also feels like I'm "pushing" fatigue out of the body and energy body. There's something about completely emptying the body of air with each breath that's energizing, almost like each exhale provides a tiny spike of adrenaline at the end as the body craves to breathe, but you just keep releasing more air, over and over and over. 

And yes I had a similar experience with it at first too. It was kind of harsh and a little stressful, not very meditative. Also the stomach was hard for me to keep attention on. However now it's pretty much instant concentration and very pleasurable. It just takes practice. 

 

11 hours ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

I'm currently doing samatha on the heart center or spiritual heart (on the right), but before have done belly breathing as well. I'm not sure which to favor yet, do you have experience in both?

I haven't worked much with the heart center for shamatha practice, but the reason I like the belly is because it is 1) the biggest source of energy in the body, 2) drops me completely out of the head and into the body, and 3) is the center of the body and therefore seems to be more conducive to producing a balanced state of mind. Everything feels very connected and in harmony with itself using the belly, more so than the nostrils or heart center. I used to use the nostrils as outlined in the mind illuminated, but since working with Soryu have switched to the belly. 
 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Consilience

[Consilience]

Just noticing how many grammar mistakes where in the original post...  

Apologies dear reader. 

[VeganAwake]

There just isn't anyone making progress on the so-called spiritual path with meditation practices.....when that's clearly recognized the cosmic joke is revealed!

Laughing may occur or not....it's fun either way good sir!

♥ 

[Consilience]

7 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

There just isn't anyone making progress on the so-called spiritual path with meditation practices.....when that's clearly recognized the cosmic joke is revealed!

Laughing may occur or not....it's fun either way good sir!

♥ 

That’s exactly right. It’s a cosmic mystery how reality itself, as no one, can come to know itself at deeper and deeper levels. It is pure, embodied paradox. And so we practice meditation. 

[Breakingthewall]

10 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

 

I have never done a meditation retreat but I would say that the mental improvement you can get is enormous. I recently spent a week in total isolation, without reading, internet, nothing, on a sailboat, suffering quite btw, and as the days went by I realized how the fog lifted from my mind, how I had missed the obvious, functioning on the surface. I was stupid! Still i am! but my stupidity, and everyone's, is not a, let's say, genetic characteristic. is acquired. stupidity is not a lack of intelligence, it is the fog that veils intelligence. you can make it disappear. You are feeding it day by day. if you stop doing it, it dissipates, and clarity manifests. if you want to be serious in this work, you have to make retreats. if not, you are playing

Edited September 3, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Inliytened1]

14 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

There just isn't anyone making progress on the so-called spiritual path with meditation practices.....when that's clearly recognized the cosmic joke is revealed!

Laughing may occur or not....it's fun either way good sir!

♥ 

This is incorrect.   I suggest you do meditation to assist in you righting this wrong.   You are stuck up the ass of guys like Jim Newman who is not awake and have missed enlightenment due to idolization and parroting.   Not sure why Leo likes keeping you around but if you keep up the neo advaita garbage you will be kicked out.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Inliytened1

[VeganAwake]

7 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

This is incorrect.   I suggest you do meditation to assist in you righting this wrong.   You are stuck up the ass of guys like Jim Newman who is not awake and have missed enlightenment due to idolization and parroting.   Not sure why Leo likes keeping you around but if you keep up the neo advaita garbage you will be kicked out.

What? You told me you had a crush on Jim....you said you loved his hair style.

♥ 

[Breakingthewall]

22 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

There just isn't anyone making progress on the so-called spiritual path with meditation practices.....when that's clearly recognized the cosmic joke is revealed!

Laughing may occur or not....it's fun either way good sir!

♥ 

Well, it's true. completely. no one advances on the spiritual path. It is the infinity, which is already the case. and there is the compendium of compulsions that produce the constant thoughts that make up the self, which is a ghostly entity, a whirlwind spinning around nothing. this compendium takes on a kind of ghostly life and is out there thinking about improving its ghostliness. what he doesn't realize is that there is no ghostliness to be enhanced, but simply to be blown away by the air. but vegan is wrong about something: when the ghost disappears, the total infinity remains, which has will and purpose. in fact it is you, and it is the source of existence, aka god, doing god things like existing , creating universes, etc

Edited September 4, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Someone here]

@Breakingthewall bro you have some serious talent playing with words in a poetic way. 

imo ,you are one of the most underrated members here .

 

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, Someone here said:

@Breakingthewall bro you have some serious talent playing with words in a poetic way. 

imo ,you are one of the most underrated members here .

 

thanks for the appreciation. For me it is more than enough to be able to release my thoughts, if not with this forum, who was I going to tell those things to?

[Someone here]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

thanks for the appreciation. For me it is more than enough to be able to release my thoughts, if not with this forum, who was I going to tell those things to?

Same thing with me . Where else could I discuss these issues of God, Free Will ,Solipsism, infinity etc in real life ? Most people if you talk to them about these subjects they will call you crazy or at least a weirdo . I use this forum as an outlet to my creative and Philosophical thoughts . I started a few Journals but I wasn't satisfied with them .it didn't feel right to me knowing that thousands of people will read my crap 

And BTW ..perhaps If you use a picture of yourself as a profile picture, that will help you gain more popularity here.just for people to get to connect with you on a deeper level .just a thought.  

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

And BTW ..perhaps If you use a picture of yourself as a profile picture, that will help you gain more popularity here.just for people to get to connect with you on a deeper level .just a thought

Less personal, more freedom, at least for me. Personal is ego, and here we are trying to go beyond that 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[InfinityBeats]

@Consilience Man thank you so much for this response, there is so much there that I don't even know how to respond besides just saying that everything really really resonates, and I definitely need to get a disciplined practice back. I never really got into Shinzen Young before, but I just started looking through the SeeHearFeel PDF and I think his teaching style might really resonate with me now as well. 

Do you do/would you consider doing paid 1:1 sessions once a month or something? You answered all of this so well and I feel like it would be very useful to have a teacher I could check in with once in a while to keep me on track and I think it would be a bit easier to communicate over zoom rather than typing things.