What's up with women being despondent to prudent/explicit (online) communication?

[Nightwise]

I've had this happen a lot when trying to set up a date or meeting with a girl, and lately I've had this happen again and it's seriously starting to make my fucking blood boil with anger and frustration; additionally, usually there also is a lot of confusion present because most of the time I have great difficulty finding out what exactly I have done so wrong that makes her not respond anymore, and the anger and frustration comes with the fact that I find it just very unfair that she —I'm consciously speaking from emotion here and not from a fair, impartial assessment— that she does not have the basic sense of respect and integrity towards me to at least tell me why the hell she stopped answering me so at least I don't have to be so incredibly confused.

As may not be a surprise when you read my posts on this forum, I tend to be very prudent, precise, thoughtful, explicit and also respectful when it comes to the way I choose to communicate to others, especially when it comes to written text (although at times I can be very confrontational, or I can intentionally choose to let go of my prudency and just deliberately let myself go, writing from emotion). When I try to set up a date or meeting with a girl or woman, I take this habit with me. I like for things to be arranged properly. I like for the conditions to be set up in such a way so that things may work out in the most optimal way possible. Therefore, I tend to be very prudent, lengthy and precise in my communication style, sending a good bit of messages and text beforehand so that the conditions are set up properly.

Many may consider me a control-freak for that reason, and arguably there is some trouble here of me having some difficulty letting go of control at times, but I'd say more than that it's a combination of me just being a very sensitive person who has an autism and ADD diagnosis, and experience has told me that I'm just very easily uncomfortable and distracted if some factors or circumstances are a little bit 'off' and/or unpredictable. It's not just that I'm afraid of things not being managed properly; It's that I've noticed from experience that things often turn out as well if I don't take certain precautions or if I don't make certain agreements.

Yes, going too far overboard with being a control-freak also gets you just as stressed out as things not being predictable or arranged properly, but for me the point of balance where I feel most comfortable and relaxed on the scale between being totally careless about everything and being an extremely precise and prudent person tends to skew much more in the direction of prudency that the average person.

On top of that, my way of being very prudent and thoughtful also comes out of a core desire to want to give a lot of quality to many of the things I do in life; Especially when it comes to the social domain. I'm a very creative person and part of the joy of expressing this creativity is coming up with original, creative out-of-the-box solutions to make the best out of a certain situation so that as many people as possible are benefited by my creativity.

But when it comes to the domain of dating, almost no girl seems to understand or respect that my prudent and therefore sometimes lengthy and explicit form of communication is often a form of me wanting to give a lot of quality to our situation and our potential date. It's really frustrating because I actually take a lot of care to communicate respectfully with a genuine intent to elevate both my own and her growth (although I do have to admit there's selfish reasons behind this), but then most of the time what I seem to get is literally nothing, or otherwise a very despondent form of communication in which she doesn't really properly and respectful responds to what I text her

At least this is how I currently understand as to what is going on. It's very confusing and frustrating. And what happens usually it that this confusion and frustration just overwhelms me so much that I'm too triggered and stressed out that I don't want or can't even manage or think of ways to recover the situation in a wise manner. There's just too much emotional upset to even continue, and even if I tried there's too much confusion to really even know what to do. However, as opposed to in the past, I've been arranging some appointments with a friend and some coaches to can help me to emotionally process this frustration, but I felt the desire to kind of type this out on the forum.

Some feedback to clarify some things for me here would be appreciated, although I do have to admit I have a habit of typing stuff here and not looking back to what the responses to my comment or topic are (or just not really being able to absorb it properly) because I for some reason feel uncomfortable in doing that. But I'll see if I can manage to read and and hopefully also properly absorb and process what's being said.

[something_else]

Lengthy, detailed communication is for later in the dating process. At the start you should be sending short, playful, fun messages. You shouldn't be that invested.

17 minutes ago, Nightwise said:

that she does not have the basic sense of respect and integrity towards me to at least tell me why the hell she stopped answering me so at least I don't have to be so incredibly confused.

Why is it that you care so much? So what? Just move onto the next girl. Girls will ghost you for any number of random reasons.

It isn't their responsibility to make sure some random dude online doesn't get his feelings hurt, they have their own shit to care about. 

[integral]

The issue is your mind set is idealistic and therefore non-adaptive to circumstance.

Prudency is one tool out of many to be used when a situation requires it.

To be realistic is to understand the game your playing exactly as it is and to find the best move in that situation (strategy).

Before sending a text ask your self, how are they going to experience this? if its going to come off as a control-freak and you will be completely misunderstood, then don't do it.

Speaking to be understood is to craft your words for the others experience.

Craft the experience you want them to have and not leave it to chance that they will understand you. 

---

I forgot to answer the question, they don't want to deal with conflict. Its easier emotionally to ignore, ghost and block then to have to have a back and forward discussion about it.

They emotionally do not want to deal with you anymore and that creates a lack of integrity, hypocrisy and double standards.

To go the opposite path of what your emotions dictate is a leap in development and why few have integrity. 

Edited September 1, 2022 by integral

[Razard86]

Until you learn to integrate your feminine women will avoid you like the plague. Women want to be around a man who is playful, smooth, and can be witty, these are all characteristics you CANNOT plan. What draws women to you, is the natural part of you, not the ACT that you put on. Women live in the present, they only care about the moment. If you have a woman thinking about the future and worrying, you are doing something wrong. She should only worry when you are NOT around, but when you are there she should feel safe, and loose to be free. The ONLY tension and nervousness she should have is sexual, outside of that she shouldn't feel any tension.

Women literally pick up the energy you give off. This is why if you notice they always bring up the "vibe." Its like the most used word by the average girl on social media. You need to understand as a logical, serious, prudent man, your nature and mindset has natural biases that will scare women off.

You probably want depth, and deep meaning, and care about honesty, truthfulness, and accountability. If these are things that you hold as your deepest values....prepare to be pissed off PLENTY. LOL.

The feminine is very child-like. Its playful, spontaneous, doesn't care about depth unless it is exploring emotional depth/feelings. It doesn't care about the past or the future, it is ALL about the moment. Its like a sunny day, that suddenly switches to a thunder storm, then switches back to a sunny day. Unpredictable, wild.

The feminine represents the impermanence of reality. The unpredictable aspect that makes reality so got damn hard to pin down. Notice the similarity? As a man you get your fun from things like pursuing knowledge, hobbies, talking about things. Women primarily get fun from relationships. So if you do not know how to give a woman the same type of joy you get from your guy things in your interactions with her....she will find someone who will. Most women's hobbies are talking and hanging out with friends/family, they are very socially oriented.

Too Long Did Not Read= Loosen up, be child like in the beginning and let your guard down. You can show her your serious side later when it is needed.

 

[Tyler Robinson]

Women don't like conflict. 

[eos_nyxia]

TLDR; try to see it from the opposite perspective?

Imagine that you get quite a few messages, some of them quite long and detailed, some far less so. In my case, in the past, even when I wanted to respond to certain people's messages, I just didn't have enough time and energy.

...what am I supposed to do, sit with my computer/ phone and respond to my messages all day long? I have other things to do.

Add to that someone who is overtly particular, not flexible, and possibly lashes out at you... and yea, that's a recipe for being ghosted.

 

The more someone tries to push or force things into happening in a way that's just not appealing, the more it's like... no.

 

When you're near the beginning especially, being relaxed, going with the flow, and being appropriately forward/ persistent are generally conducive to getting somewhere (unless I'm taking more of the lead, which happens).

[eos_nyxia]

Though I actually would actually answer honestly a lot of the time if someone asked why I was not responding (sometimes there wasn't anything done wrong, but there wasn't exactly much "done right" either).

Dudes aren't always nice about continuing to talk to you if you're not giving them what they want/ expect... like they can get extra abusive even if they were "nice enough" before. For every dude who is a civil human being about it, others are butthurt and calling you names// trying to knock you down a few pegs... when really, it's not that personal... like, at all.

 

It's a sign our times, I guess.

 

Also for the record: men do the same thing enough.   Maybe far less overall, but still.

Edited September 2, 2022 by eos_nyxia

[Tyler Robinson]

@eos_nyxia I think it also comes down to social tact. Like being genuinely confused about what and how to respond and the anxiety associated with it all. Can be a bit of an emotional burden so the easier way out looks like it's best to just escape it all. 

[eos_nyxia]

@Tyler Robinson  Yea, by default it's easier to not engage.

I feel bad sometimes for dudes though because I see them trying very hard and getting frustrated. (But I stop feeling bad if they lash out or have a meltdown.) It's what drives them to seek out really questionable advice from some not-so-great men, and even though I'm not a huge advice-giver myself... I feel at least a little bit responsible even if I'm not interested in them personally.

Respecting some personal version "the social contract" and all that.

Technology makes it even easier to be evasive in a way that people feel is deeply inhumane on some level.

A lack of attention/ appreciation/ "love" can and does kill in its own way.

Edited September 2, 2022 by eos_nyxia

[Tyler Robinson]

@eos_nyxia I would actually feel kinda bad to ghost a guy who was being very gentle and nice.. If I'm turning someone down or just generally ghosting a dude, it often has to be him acting like a total punk and testing the limits of my patience till I reach my breaking point and at that point the thought process is generally along the lines of - what's even the point of such a conversation anyway, it's best to cut it out right there. I mean I can already sense that it could be going towards a conflict. So I kinda just save myself some unnecessary trouble much ahead of that conversation. But he gotta be a real dick for me to come to that point. 

 

[Tyler Robinson]

@eos_nyxia and sometimes the reason why a person, generally women, ghost a guy is because the sense a lack of authenticity from the dude. A very long detailed response can sometimes come off as too much  rambling and inauthentic. 

[something_else]

10 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

@eos_nyxia I would actually feel kinda bad to ghost a guy who was being very gentle and nice.. If I'm turning someone down or just generally ghosting a dude, it often has to be him acting like a total punk and testing the limits of my patience till I reach my breaking point and at that point the thought process is generally along the lines of - what's even the point of such a conversation anyway, it's best to cut it out right there. I mean I can already sense that it could be going towards a conflict. So I kinda just save myself some unnecessary trouble much ahead of that conversation. But he gotta be a real dick for me to come to that point. 

 

As someone who’s done a lot of online dating, I’d rather be ghosted than lead on

I understand it’s not always so cut or dry, sometimes you’re just seeing how things go and aren’t sure if you’d actually take things further

But if you have no intention of going any further with a guy, just ghost them or politely move on. No matter how nice or polite they are

[Tyler Robinson]

5 minutes ago, something_else said:

But if you have no intention of going any further with a guy, just ghost them or politely move on. No matter how nice or polite they are

This is easier said than done, of course I'm going to be ghosting them in any case, either way if I don't intend to carry anything forward with a gentle guy, yet it leaves me with a sour feeling. I've always felt bad rejecting even if rejecting is the bad thing to do, and as you said, better than leading someone on. On the flip side, I have been dumped by text or ghosted (much worse) and it hurts like crazy. Maybe that's why I always felt bad turning people down. 

[something_else]

To give you some sense of a typical ghosting rate for online dating for a guy, I get more than one message in about 50% of all my matches. About 20% are a short convo and then a ghost. About 10% I’ll get socials, and maybe 5% will go on a date. So about a 95% ghost rate. These are crude estimations but they’re close enough to make my point

From what I gather this is pretty standard. Real life ghosting rate is prob a little bit less but I don’t really do getting socials/numbers in real life that much so I can’t say for sure. But whatever the case it’s still a lot. So you gotta get used to that shit as a guy and not get butthurt over it

[something_else]

4 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

This is easier said than done, of course I'm going to be ghosting them in any case, either way if I don't intend to carry anything forward with a gentle guy, yet it leaves me with a sour feeling. I've always felt bad rejecting even if rejecting is the bad thing to do, and as you said, better than leading someone on. On the flip side, I have been dumped by text or ghosted (much worse) and it hurts like crazy. Maybe that's why I always felt bad turning people down. 

If it’s just some random dude you met online don’t feel bad. He’s getting ghosted left right and centre. But yea, after you’ve actually met up a few times and built a connection, ghosting is really rude and you should never do it at that point

[Tyler Robinson]

2 minutes ago, something_else said:

If it’s just some random dude you met online don’t feel bad. He’s getting ghosted left right and centre. But yea, after you’ve actually met up a few times and built a connection, ghosting is really rude and you should never do it at that point

Meh, I got ghosted after a six month relationship. Poof went my heart and burst like a balloon! 

[something_else]

Just now, Tyler Robinson said:

Meh, I got ghosted after a six month relationship. Poof went my heart and burst like a balloon! 

Sounds like it was good riddance anyway. I know it still hurts, though.

Straight up ghosting anywhere beyond a first date is almost always extremely selfish

[eos_nyxia]

TBH it never actually occurred to me originally that people thought of that as "ghosting" before you've even established a definite connection or talked that much, let alone met IRL or went on a date. To me, it's simply a conversation that naturally didn't go anywhere for whatever reason...

If it's just a couple of messages exchanged (even if they're lengthy enough), getting butthurt is like: ????????

...conversations and exchanges fizz out and go nowhere in particular in person too, and it's not necessarily because someone is being inconsiderate and inattentive, let alone malicious about it. It's the spontaneous nature of human connection and chemistry that can't always be easily predicted.

I mean... especially if you're a guy and you're shooting out a lot of messages, why get upset about mine in particular? Particularly when there is nothing -particular- about our conversation, like you could be having that conversation with any woman who was your"type" was// fulfilled a specific need/ desire/ whatever.

Edited September 2, 2022 by eos_nyxia

[Loba]

Keep it short and sweet to start out with, and then as things progress you can add in more detail.  For me, when guys start out with long blocks of text and I don't know them well, it kind of stresses me out and I'll ghost them.  As it is, I'm a very shy person and so communicating with new people is already going way outside of my comfort zone.  It also says to me that the person is more invested in me than I am in them, when I am just trying to get a feel for them to start out with. 

Things are actually much easier and more memorable when you keep it simple.

K.I.S.S.  - keep it simple stupid

[something_else]

@eos_nyxia Lots of guys are so starving for female attention that they get invested in new girls ridiculously quickly

A short casual conversation online with you can be interpreted by a desperate guy as far far more investment from you than what you intended it to mean.

So in their head when you ghost them it’s almost like a betrayal

But the root issue is with them, not you

Edited September 2, 2022 by something_else