Final layer of the onion.

[justfortoday]

10 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@justfortoday so I'm the only conscious observer right now in the entire universe?  But there will come a time in a hypothetical future (timeline) that I will live through your POV?  But then what's the difference between that and our conventional perspective?  You can only verify your own consciousness but you cannot absolutely cannot in a million years  jump behind my eyes and see the world from my pov and conclude that I'm just a figment of your mind like in a nightly dream and have no independent existence.  It's a game of probability really. Since certainty around this issue is unreachable. You can only speculate.  But the problem arises when you take your speculations so seriously and get stuck on them and not  being able to jump between different paradigms . I accept both the idealist and the realist paradigms simultaneously. While you only accept the idealist paradigm. Which means you need to expand your perspective more .

 

There is no universe. 

[Someone here]

19 minutes ago, justfortoday said:

There is no universe. 

Then what the heck is THIS?!

 

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@axiom I would be very suspicious of your "final layer" if I were you.

I'm on this layer:

I'm sorry 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Adamq8]

There is actually glimpsing in psychedelic trips, there is still this presence which is non existent at the same time, it is absolutely absurd what reality really is, like a painting but no one painting but at the same time, this painting can be anything or do anything, it is pure creativity and madness and empty. 

It is no one there but presence, and presence/non presence is and can be whatever, even non existence but it is not real, nothing is real, but simultanously infinitely real, like Leo says, it is an infinite hallucination appearing nowhere.

Life is truly a dream, but yet a dream is such a limited notion, but empty this surely is.

 But in lack of a better word, it is infinite Self and No Self simultanously. 

But surely, you dont want the truth, it is truly game over then, nowhere to run, yet there is no possibility in avoiding it, the pulling of the truth gets stronger and then it is no longer up to you.

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Adamq8

[axiom]

30 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

There is actually glimpsing in psychedelic trips, there is still this presence which is non existent at the same time, it is absolutely absurd what reality really is, like a painting but no one painting but at the same time, this painting can be anything or do anything, it is pure creativity and madness and empty. 

It is no one there but presence, and presence/non presence is and can be whatever, even non existence but it is not real, nothing is real, but simultanously infinitely real, like Leo says, it is an infinite hallucination appearing nowhere.

Life is truly a dream, but yet a dream is such a limited notion, but empty this surely is.

 But in lack of a better word, it is infinite Self and No Self simultanously. 

But surely, you dont want the truth, it is truly game over then, nowhere to run, yet there is no possibility in avoiding it, the pulling of the truth gets stronger and then it is no longer up to you.

 

This. No one can want it. No-one would ever want it. There’s very literally absolutely nothing to get.

i would not use the word “self”. I would use the word “appearance”. Self implies awareness in some sense so may be misleading. 

“God” is also a word I might use. It does seem to have some baggage though.

”Infinity” seems like a very apt word also.

Of all the most misleading words, “awareness” would be top of the list.

Edited September 1, 2022 by axiom

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

@justfortoday so are you saying that it's me who's all alone or yourself? 

 

but regardless..I struggled a lot with this solipsism issue myself and from the few occasions that you seem to be active on this forum (which is very little) you seem to be advocating solipsism. 

I can't prove or disprove solipsism. But I can deal with it from a pragmatic approach. 

no one lives this way. So your life is a practical denial of the concept. If a cliff is merely an illusion, then there is no reason not to walk off of a cliff. If people are merely constructs of your own mind, there is no reason to need anyone, value anyone, or to treat other people well.

The brain has inadequate computing power to create the detail which we experience daily in everyday life. You can easily verify this by the fact that dreams are much lower resolution than what we see in our waking life. So our perception are not purely internal, they depend on an external reality.

If You believe that a pot of boiling water is real.. You would not put your hand into boiling water.

Furthermore..if you read this answer, then there are two conscious beings- me the writer and you the reader.

Also I dislike solipsism because it's lame and feminine. Whereas realism is masculine. But that's a topic for another day .

 

There is no ME or YOU.  Everything you ever experience is YOU. The End. That's it. 

[Someone here]

@Razard86 you are just speculating .

no matter how you capitalize words .

I don't buy this solipsism BS anymore. 

We all are conscious. 

If you truly were a solipsist and you want to be consistent with your worldview then you simply should stop blabbering your mouth  everyday on this forum and just  rejoice in your solipsistic bubble instead .

But since you are in a forum talking to a group of "other people "  then you are not  a solipsist.

[Adamq8]

49 minutes ago, axiom said:

This. No one can want it. No-one would ever want it. There’s very literally absolutely nothing to get.

i would not use the word “self”. I would use the word “appearance”. Self implies awareness in some sense so may be misleading. 

“God” is also a word I might use. It does seem to have some baggage though.

”Infinity” seems like a very apt word also.

Of all the most misleading words, “awareness” would be top of the list.

Yes , Infinity , God , is really good words because thats what it truly is, in its essence, it is so ineffable so it is impossible to speak about it, but truly, enlightenment or serious awakening really makes everything completely meaningless, but not necessarily in a bad way, it is like coming home but simultanously it is pure madness, thoughts, concepts etc, is a way to veil the truth because it is frightening, and then the realization becomes, "life" is absolutely perfect as it is.

Nothingness can not overcome it either so to speak, it is too free to be limited to it.

Because it contains all that there is, even the not is as well in a paradoxically way.

Like outside is looking in and outside does not even exist ?

Funny, cosmic joke.

[justfortoday]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Then what the heck is THIS?!

 

THAT is a figment of consciousness appearing as an image.

The universe happens WITHIN your consciousness.

You are quite literally imagining the moon every single time you look at it.

Your consciousness is imagining the colors that make up that picture ON THE FLY. 1:1. No eyes doing any looking. Pure magic. 

You don’t yet understand the depth of the illusion consciousness is playing. 
 

Its a VR Game of brilliant design with nested backstories to justify your existence as a character.

It’s infinitely intelligent and infinitely mischievous.

This is a BEING we are talking about.

That being, god, has a point of view, because it’s a someone. It’s just that god wants to experience duality and the illusion of something else other than itself.

Because it is eternal. Who the fuck wants that?

What you really are, if you wanna know, is God wearing a giant, invisible VR set that lets it experience colors, sounds, feelings, etc.

god is your mind dreaming that it is YOU. Your mind is a node in a super network.

Edited September 1, 2022 by justfortoday

[axiom]

8 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

Yes , Infinity , God , is really good words because thats what it truly is, in its essence, it is so ineffable so it is impossible to speak about it, but truly, enlightenment or serious awakening really makes everything completely meaningless, but not necessarily in a bad way, it is like coming home but simultanously it is pure madness, thoughts, concepts etc, is a way to veil the truth because it is frightening, and then the realization becomes, "life" is absolutely perfect as it is.

Nothingness can not overcome it either so to speak, it is too free to be limited to it.

Because it contains all that there is, even the not is as well in a paradoxically way.

Like outside is looking in and outside does not even exist ?

Funny, cosmic joke.

This. Very nice description. Coming home, also funny, also scary.

[Someone here]

@justfortoday

Everyone is just actors, you got that right. But! You have a blind spot: yourself.

What makes you real? The error is in thinking that you are the center of everything. That is the most common error .so common it's taken to be absolute truth.

Others are not real, you're right. They're impersonating people, playing roles. But so are you. I know that can be scary, because the whole thing is empty. It means there's no one here. Just Shakespeare’s stage and ‘us’ as actors on it. But we're also the audience. Funny enough it's a show with no one for no one revolving around no one. No one is the hero, but no one is the villain either. Just roles playing out, directed by the process of life life-ing.

About the whole VR thing...yeah yeah yeah..You live in the Matrix, so of course reality is all an illusion. Just don’t walk in front of a moving car, because your illusion will hurt.

 

 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

We all are conscious. 

"We" are each our own patterns of perceptions, thoughts and feelings, that seem obscured to each other in some way, but which still occur within the same field of infinite consciousness. Each perception, thought or feeling is also infinite onto itself, and you can choose to dive into the infinity of either of those things and unite the infinity of form and formlessness.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Someone here]

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

"We" are each our own patterns of perceptions, thoughts and feelings, that seem obscured to each other in some way, but which still occur within the same field of infinite consciousness. Each perception, thought or feeling is also infinite onto itself, and you can choose to dive into the infinity of either of those things and unite the infinity of form and formlessness.

 Let's cut the shit ...

Do you agree that I'm a conscious person  just like you ?

Yes or no ?

 

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

@Razard86 you are just speculating .

no matter how you capitalize words .

I don't buy this solipsism BS anymore. 

We all are conscious. 

If you truly were a solipsist and you want to be consistent with your worldview then you simply should stop blabbering your mouth  everyday on this forum and just  rejoice in your solipsistic bubble instead .

But since you are in a forum talking to a group of "other people "  then you are not  a solipsist.

Lol I am not speculating speak for yourself I told you, without direct experience of an awakening you cannot verify. You kept arguing with me, finally you are coming around that you don't know. Took forever. No I am not speculating. If Leo came out tomorrow and said he made it all up I would laugh at him. THATS HOW SURE I AM.

You aren't, if Leo told you he made it up you would believe him. I have VERIFIED IT. I figured it out through psychology alone, psychology proves it. Have you not read my posts? How can everyone be your mirror, IF THEY WEREN'T YOU!!!

What do you think karma is? karma IS YOUR REFLECTION. Karma exists because everything is connected, if it is connected then it is ONE!!!

Why does paradox exist? BECAUSE IT IS ONE!!! You cannot have paradox if seperation exists!! Its not speculation ITS THE MOST OBVIOUS FREAKING THING.

[Carl-Richard]

10 minutes ago, Someone here said:

 Let's cut the shit ...

Do you agree that I'm a conscious person  just like you ?

Yes or no ?

Do you have your own perceptions, thoughts and feelings? Well, based on the fact that when I pinch my skin, I'll say "ouch" and then feel pain, and when you do the same, you will also say "ouch", it's a safe inference that you experience the same pain as I do. I have other experiences other than pain that also show the same correlations as mentioned above, so it's also a safe inference that you have your own perceptions, thoughts and feelings just like me. However, consciousness is not just inherent to perceptions, thoughts or feelings, but also that which is not those things. This fact is verifiable through direct experience, not just through inference.

[axiom]

47 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@justfortoday

Everyone is just actors, you got that right. But! You have a blind spot: yourself.

What makes you real? The error is in thinking that you are the center of everything. That is the most common error .so common it's taken to be absolute truth.

Others are not real, you're right. They're impersonating people, playing roles. But so are you. I know that can be scary, because the whole thing is empty. It means there's no one here. Just Shakespeare’s stage and ‘us’ as actors on it. But we're also the audience. Funny enough it's a show with no one for no one revolving around no one. No one is the hero, but no one is the villain either. Just roles playing out, directed by the process of life life-ing.

About the whole VR thing...yeah yeah yeah..You live in the Matrix, so of course reality is all an illusion. Just don’t walk in front of a moving car, because your illusion will hurt.

 

 

 

This is a good description.

[Razard86]

Its true and untrue at the same time. You guys don't understand what a self is. You can't claim no self without the lifeing.

The lifeing IS the self.

What is a self.

A self is an identity. What is identity? An identity is a bunch of data created and put together.

Saying there is no self is like saying Spider Man is not a self. Spiderman is equivalent to a self as you are.

The whole no self concept is ALSO a pointer. What does this mean? It means everything around you is dreamt up, its fiction, its imaginary, just as imaginary as Spiderman. 

But to say there is no self is equivalent to saying there is no DREAM. The DREAM is the self. This is called direct experience. Anyone telling you there is no Self and running around calling everything illusion is asleep. We tell you its illusion to discover the SOURCE of the illusion. The source has no self when it stops dreaming. The moment it dreams, self is there. By meditating, and going silent you can awaken from the dream and realize no self. But then you RETURN to self and live as a self with the realization that the self and dream are ONE. That's it. 

This is very basic. If you start dreaming you are a car, your self is the car and everything within the dream of the self as car. 

If you dream you are a bird, you are everything that dreams itself as a bird and everything in the dream as bird.

That's it. 

You are a no self, that doesn't exist, that creates a self to figure out what it is. That's it. Since you are no thing, and not a self, whatever you create will be equivalent to that. So your creation is no self, because it is all selves, its also made out of nothing. The dream is an elaborate illusion made by an all powerful no self to experience a self. 

The dream is so powerful and total, that it is REAL. That's why we call it reality. That's why you spend your time writing on this forum. 

You all are getting lost in concept and word plays.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Razard86

[Breakingthewall]

I'd say everything is real. everyone is conciouss, enlightenment is not something obvious, it is sacred, it is an explosion of sacredness. absolute emptiness is bottomless and full. full of existence, of life. all you see is it, in his wonder. he is god because he is creating himself right now. it is pure sacred life flowing from the void. nothing obvious in my opinion. that you do not exist, you are a dream, why? you exist, you are a creation of existence, that is, you are existence itself creating itself. we could say dream or real, its exactly the same. Maybe like dream because the shape is going to pass, to change and existence is eternal, but the shape exist . 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[axiom]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I'd say everything is real. everyone is conciouss, enlightenment is not something obvious, it is sacred, it is an explosion of sacredness. absolute emptiness is bottomless and full. full of existence, of life. all you see is it, in his wonder. he is god because he is creating himself right now. it is pure sacred life flowing from the void. nothing obvious in my opinion. that you do not exist, you are a dream, why? you exist, you are a creation of existence, that is, you are existence itself creating itself. we could say dream or real, its exactly the same. Maybe like dream because the shape is going to pass and existence is eternal, but the shape exist 

This is a story.

[Someone here]

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Do you have your own perceptions, thoughts and feelings? Well, based on the fact that when I pinch my skin, I'll say "ouch" and then feel pain, and when you do the same, you will also say "ouch", it's a safe inference that you experience the same pain as I do. I have other experiences other than pain that also show the same correlations as mentioned above, so it's also a safe inference that you have your own perceptions, thoughts and feelings just like me. However, consciousness is not just inherent to perceptions, thoughts or feelings, but also that which is not those things. This fact is verifiable through direct experience, not just through inference.

Got it . So even though we can both call blue "blue" ..there is no way to verify that my blue is your blue. We just assume its the same.  You can't jump between different bodies and experience what it's like to be your mom. So that leaves the question open.  And solipsism doesn't allow space for expanding perspective or acknowledge these limitations that I just mentioned. 

Solipsism is the belief that external reality is your mental projection.It’s only you, surrounded by zombies.

We can easily see the error by thinking about dreams.Dreams are projections, but your dream self isn’t surrounded by zombies.

Your dream self is a projection too, like the other dream characters.Your consciousness isn’t in your dream body.Every dream character has an equal claim on it.Non-duality maintains the Self is the only reality.Nothing else has independent existence.

At most, it’s an internal reflection, like a dream.“You” are a character in your own dream.

Because there’s only one Self, you must be in your own dream. And I'm on my own dream .so we are both figments of each other's imagination AND simultaneously independently real .