A book better than GEB

[Flyboy]

I'll start by saying I did read GEB, cover to cover.  It was interesting and sometimes insightful, but woefully stuck in the materialist paradigm and not as profound as Hofstadter himself thinks it is.  And, as I've come to see, it was totally stuck (in an unaware way) in left-brain thinking.

Read "The Master and his Emissary"

All I can say is WOW, this book was a golden find.  It contains some of the deepest and most profound thinking I have found in an intellectual book, and goes far beyond the basic premise of describing brain hemisphere differences.  It connects deeply researched neuroscience with philosophy, music, art, culture, science, emotion, epistemology, and in many ways the nature of reality itself.  The book examines how the hemisphere "personality" differences color both our perception of the world and our construction of the world, and in a feat of intellectual superpower, it does this very analysis through both left and right-brained lenses, and integrates the two.  This is not easy reading, but it so well written that the challenge lies entirely in your ability to understand the ideas, rather than struggle with convoluted language or the author's ego.

@Leo Gura You need to read this book and add it to your book list.  This lense is as powerful as Spiral Dynamics, and even enriches it too as many of the stage alterations are seen to actually be integrations of brain hemispheres in increasingly sophisticated ways.  And even more importantly, I think it will alert you to the abstractions present in your own work that are perhaps more grounded in left-brain thinking than you realize.  The integration this book ultimately describes is the true definition of Turquoise, I think, and represents an incredible sophistication rarely seen in any human.

Enjoy!

 

As a side note, I'm also reading Wilbur's Religion of Tomorrow, and find that work to be vacuous and uninspired to say the least.  Wilbur has one idea for every 30 pages, while Iain McGilchrist has 30 real ideas per page.  The difference is gargantuan. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Flyboy

[puporing]

Maybe you are not "reading it right" . The little bit of GEB I read were very enlightening and mind expanding.

Edited September 1, 2022 by puporing

[Flyboy]

5 hours ago, puporing said:

Maybe you are not "reading it right" . The little bit of GEB I read were very enlightening and mind expanding.

If you're below his level, I'm sure it is.  Not for me, it was mostly a step backwards and an exercise in untwisting his ideas.  Tiresome and not as rewarding as I'd hoped (much like reading something from Ray Dalio, for example).  McGilchrist, on the other hand, is a polymath genius and his ideas are profound, though also not 100% accurate when he gets too close to "self" and "consciousness".  But he gets much much closer than GEB does.

[puporing]

46 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

If you're below his level, I'm sure it is.  Not for me, it was mostly a step backwards and an exercise in untwisting his ideas.  Tiresome and not as rewarding as I'd hoped (much like reading something from Ray Dalio, for example).  McGilchrist, on the other hand, is a polymath genius and his ideas are profound, though also not 100% accurate when he gets too close to "self" and "consciousness".  But he gets much much closer than GEB does.

Well this was awhile ago now and before my awakening, and I never finished it coz I kinda got the gist and moved on to other things. I was reading it more holistically rather than the details. If you read it holistically it's signposts to the nature of reality.

Edited September 1, 2022 by puporing

[Leo Gura]

11 hours ago, Flyboy said:

 

@Leo Gura You need to read this book and add it to your book list. 

I have it, but I can't be bothered to read it. Whatever he wrote is way less profound than what I can get from just contemplating the nature of God.

There's very little I get from books these days.

I don't doubt that it's a good book as far as books go.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Cireeric]

@Leo Gura For me your new attitude towards books sounds a bit lazy and uninspiring. Arent there always new ways of thinking and new concepts and new connections, that you havent thought of before, that could complement and deepen your understanding of reality? Also youre still watching videos and most of the time books go deeper into the topics with more nuance and clearer thinking than videos could do. Isnt there still an infinitude of things to know about the relative domain? Not mean to bother you, I know you read hundred of books probably way more than me and you also accessed levels of consciousness far deeper than me. But that are just my thoughts when I hear this and also it doesnt fit for me into the general theme of actualized of lifelong learning.

 

[Leo Gura]

@Cireeric I try reading serious books, but every time I get a few pages or a chapter into it, I'm like: "This is dumb. Why am I wasting my time listening this human who has no clue what's going on?"

Sounds arrogant, but honestly when you reach my level of understanding it's gonna be a waste of your time listening to people explain reality to you. Books on philosophy, spirituality, and the like are simply pointless to read now. Other kinds of books can still be worthwhile, like if I need some narrow technical or practical knowledge. But books that attempt to explain something profound? Waste of time.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Asayake]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Cireeric I try reading serious books, but every time I get a few pages or a chapter into it, I'm like: "This is dumb. Why am I wasting my time listening this human who has no clue what's going on?"

Sounds arrogant, but honestly when you reach my level of understanding it's gonna be a waste of your time listening to people explain reality to you. Books on philosophy, spirituality, and the like are simply pointless to read now. Other kinds of books can still be worthwhile, like if I need some narrow technical or practical knowledge. But books that attempt to explain something profound? Waste of time.

What about poetic stuff and fiction? Books as an art and entertainment rather than a source of insight?

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Asayake said:

What about poetic stuff and fiction? Books as an art and entertainment rather than a source of insight?

That's fine. But I almost never read fiction. I got better things to do.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Cireeric]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Cireeric I try reading serious books, but every time I get a few pages or a chapter into it, I'm like: "This is dumb. Why am I wasting my time listening this human who has no clue what's going on?"

Sounds arrogant, but honestly when you reach my level of understanding it's gonna be a waste of your time listening to people explain reality to you. Books on philosophy, spirituality, and the like are simply pointless to read now. Other kinds of books can still be worthwhile, like if I need some narrow technical or practical knowledge. But books that attempt to explain something profound? Waste of time.

Okay I understand, thx for clarification!

[Flyboy]

On 9/1/2022 at 3:53 AM, Leo Gura said:

I have it, but I can't be bothered to read it. Whatever he wrote is way less profound than what I can get from just contemplating the nature of God.

There's very little I get from books these days.

I don't doubt that it's a good book as far as books go.

I think you're well aware this reply is quite distasteful.  

That aside, this book is what Turquoise is really about.  It takes conceptuality right to the edge of its breaking point at the boundary between the mind and perception, which is rarified territory that I have not seen any other author successfully address.  There are plenty of books on enlightenment, which are ultimately just pointings and aimed at the non-conceptual... but this book leads right up to that event horizon where concepts break and fall apart.  This is intellectually fascinating and VERY challenging, even for someone smart.

Your own work would benefit from this perspective greatly, as I recognize a lot of these left-brain biases in your teachings.  If you "waste time" on spiral dynamics or cook-greuter, you should "waste time" on this.  You still live in the world brah, and this lense is powerful.

[Leo Gura]

@Flyboy Honestly though, what will it tell me that I don't already know?

[Nilsi]

44 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Flyboy Honestly though, what will it tell me that I don't already know?

Probably nothing, but it will make your thinking richer; there is a certain aesthetic to thought that you can develop, as you probably know. 

[Leo Gura]

14 hours ago, Nilsi said:

Probably nothing, but it will make your thinking richer; there is a certain aesthetic to thought that you can develop, as you probably know. 

I think richer when I turn inwards and contemplate. Books are just a poor substitute for that.

[Leo Gura]

55 minutes ago, Tahuti said:

predicated

Predicated?

I had a sense of life purpose long before I knew who Aristotle was.

That's like saying my sex drive is predicated on watching porn.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Nilsi]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I think richer when I turn inwards and contemplate. Books are just a poor substitute for that.

Fair enough.

[Nilsi]

43 minutes ago, Tahuti said:

We all have influences which make what we do a slight derivative from them. Example: what type of porn you 'create' would be based off the type of porn you've been exposed to. Not based off your sex drive...

So based on what did the first pornographer create his pornos?

[Flyboy]

On 9/5/2022 at 3:10 AM, Leo Gura said:

@Flyboy Honestly though, what will it tell me that I don't already know?

@Leo Gura You won't know that until you read it.  For me, it has caused a deep reexamination of the way my mind works and the way I think.  Like other lenses, it brings clarity to processes that were "blurry", and then allows contemplation to reintegrate that clarity into the whole.  It does this profoundly.  The mind (and heart) of a Turquoise polymath is nothing to be sneered at--I often spend an hour on 5 pages.

Yes it's based on neuroscience and philosophy, AND it isn't.  It's left AND right.  It's experience AND concept.  It's beauty AND logic.  It cuts to the heart of holism and its relationship with integration and separation, and does so using the tools of both analytical thinking and metaphorical and lyrical and even poetic shades of understanding, and then integrates them.

Not many on this forum can challenge you intellectually, but I can.  And I'm telling you this book would help your work and help you contemplate more deeply, as you DO have blind spots (as do we all).  

Just because you enjoy contemplating "ultimate" reality, it's important to also remember there is (and isn't) a distinction between the absolute and relative.  Enlightenment and beyond points towards "truth", but the relative is also part of (and the whole of) that truth.  Paradox collapses both, and it is precisely that collapsing that this book brings much-needed light to.  I actually don't think McGilchrist is enlightened, but it doesn't matter because he's so close within the relative that there are exceptionally few points of confusion, and that's where you need to bring your own experience to the table anyway.  This is worth the time and investment, and any argument that "you don't need it" is just self-deception and fear of introducing ungrounding elements into your "view."

Live where you fear to live.

 - Rumi

[Leo Gura]

@Flyboy You make some good points, however, I have listened to McGilchirst and I'm well aware of his positions.

I agree, he's an exceptional mind. I have his books on my bookshelf.

But none of that reaches the levels that I am now exploring. I am way beyond science now and I deliberately make an effort now to throw away all human teachings. They just hold me back. I don't need any human models or explanations of myself.

Hopefully some day you will reach this stage in your development.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Virtually]

@Flyboy Are you planning to read McGillChrist's "The Matter with Things"?

He published it relatively recently

If recall correctly, it took him something like 10 years to write. it deals with the nature of reality and perception, building upon his previous work with the "master and his emissary", but with a deeper and more ontological take as far as I know