Transitioning Soon

[Jannes]

10 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Death Is not something my ego wants to be real .its an objective fact .

Your direct experience is the only thing that is absolutely true. It is true because you can’t deny it. You can’t deny what is already happening. Everything else is second order truth. It’s something that is true inside the dream. So an "objective fact“ is second order truth also and so is death. What is death really for you right know? It’s a concept and not direct experience. So it’s second order truth. Reality is first order truth. So yes it is true that I think that death is real but that doesn’t mean that death is literally real. You cling to second order truth because that’s all you know. 

 

[Someone here]

15 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Your direct experience is the only thing that is absolutely true. It is true because you can’t deny it. You can’t deny what is already happening. Everything else is second order truth. It’s something that is true inside the dream. So an "objective fact“ is second order truth also and so is death. What is death really for you right know? It’s a concept and not direct experience. So it’s second order truth. Reality is first order truth. So yes it is true that I think that death is real but that doesn’t mean that death is literally real. You cling to second order truth because that’s all you know. 

 

I get that. But why are you placing more importance on first order truth than second order truth ?

For example..hunger is a second truth. It's first order is mere sensations in the stomach.  But if you don't plan to feed yourself for more than two weeks ..you will most likely fall dead .so second order truths are no less important than first order truth .

Similarly, death is defined as an absence of properties that are considered definitive of life. 

Quite simply, absences have no existence. Again, by definition. If I show you an empty hand and say ‘there is an absence of gold here’ then does that constitute the existence of an absence of gold?

No. It doesn’t. Because it also constitutes an absence of silver and an absence of Diet Coke. That absence is an absence of everything and it thereby constitutes nothing.

So are you saying, since death is the absence of life it does not exist ?It is a state of contrast .an alternative state of being where what we consider being has evidently ceased to be?

Ironically, death is an absolutely certain uncertainty.

[Breakingthewall]

@Someone here of course it is fear. If I had 100 million people waiting for my talks, you would poop in my pants and I would be stuck babbling monosyllables. As brave as you are, the role Leo takes on is extremely challenging. That does not mean that we do not analyze it thoroughly looking for weak points

[Someone here]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Someone here of course it is fear. If I had 100 million people waiting for my talks, you would poop in my pants and I would be stuck babbling monosyllables. As brave as you are, the role Leo takes on is extremely challenging. That does not mean that we do not analyze it thoroughly looking for weak points

even though I do agree with what you're saying. The thing is, a lot of times, people are convinced that their side is the right one. We are all the 'heroes' of our own stories until we find out we're not.

A lot of times people don't even know they are wrong. Sometimes it is an ego thing, but sometimes it's just a complete misunderstanding. People processes information differently, and some things are obvious to some people but not to others. You may think the other is wrong and assume they don't  know but don't want to admit, but you might actually be wrong instead. It could always be the other way around if things were never clearly communicated. You really never know sometimes. And because society has a stigma towards being wrong, people will continually justify their own actions whether they are 'wrong' or 'right'.

We gain appreciation in the eyes of most people, when we admit we are wrong. But only if we really are wrong.

What if you aren’t sure? Then it is not wise to do that. What if you are a politician? Then your competitors will jump on you and make sure your admission is widely disseminated. Is that bad? Most politicians think it is. And most people in general. 

[Mannyb]

From Stephen Deutch’s book “the force is with you”, producer of What Dreams May Come and Somewhere in Time:

The continuum of life, death, and rebirth can neither be proved nor disproved. Passionate arguments can be made on both sides, and every individual must make up his own mind. I only want to make one "point" here about all of these beliefs. Life-after-life researchers have actually indeed "scientifically proven" at least one thing: People who are declared clinically dead and are then revived (or just return) have for centuries related a universal experience. A comforting white light, seeing a tunnel, relatives and friends who have died, and a sense of peace. These stories are told in every culture in every society in the world, even primitive ones where there is no contact with outside culture of any kind. Even skeptics acknowledge the phenomenon but call it a mass hallucination. Funny. That's how some of us look at this experience we call "life."

For me, there is no doubt that I have been here for thousands of years. I have done variouis versions of past-life regressions, and I know that those experiences were real. I feel them on a cellular level. I also know that I have lived several lifetimes with my daughters, my friends, my partners, and other intimates in my life. In fact, it is part of my belief system that we do travel through the ages in soul groups. We have karmic bonds to one another, and we help each other grow and learn through a myriad of lifetimes. We change roles and relationships to each other but always help each other learn and incorporate whatever lessons we have chosen to experience in a specific incarnation.

When we meet someone with whom we have one of those pacts, we resonate immediately to them, often for reasons we either don't understand or even misinterpret at times, but we just know.

Going even further, I believe that we actually choose who our parents are going to be, too, for both the lessons that we can learn from them and for the lessons that they can learn from us. Those roles can switch from lifetime to lifetime. My father now could have been my daughter before, etc. It's like there's a big "boardroom" meeting in the afterlife. All of us who go between lives and who have soul group relationships sit around a big table (well, at least a virtual one) and discuss what we need learn and how best we can help each other learn whatever those lessons might be. Then we're born. Part of the experience is that we lose all conscious connection with those bargains that we made, so we have to discover them as we go along in our lives, and sometimes that's very aggravating, right?

...If you follow this kind of philosophy, you eventually understand that everything that happens to you in life is your own responsibility and that acceptance, in turn, erases the concept of "blame." Neale Donald Walsch wrote a wonderful book called Little Soul and the Sun, which takes this concept a step further: even the people who cause you heartache in life are seen differently because you come to accept that they are only playing roles that you both agreed to before you were born.

Anyway, it is issues like those contained in this bit of a digression that I've allowed myself here that have convinced me and millions of others that death is but a passage into another existence. Skeptics often say that such a conviction is based solely in wish fulfillment; that is, because we fear death, we create the illusion that death is only transitory, so as to allay our own fears. Okay. Fair point. I can't "prove" that those skeptics are wrong. On the other hand, they can't "prove" that they're right either...

Even if we can't "prove" any of this, the world seems a kinder, gentler place with this philosophy than without it.

 

[Breakingthewall]

@Someone here im not just talking about being wrong, but about being a little...let's say not totally honest. Leo has always prided himself on being totally concrete, straight to the point. Unlike traditional teachers who speak to you in enigmas, Leo explains reality in detail. but there are a couple of points, the solipsism, this of death, in which he takes out the wild card: wake up stupid! this cannot be explained, you have to be awake to see it. Ah, well, then don't explain anything, repeat that I have to awake to see it and that about stop mental masturbation. no friend, your point is to unravel the riddle, not speak in riddles

Edited September 2, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Someone here]

21 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Someone here im not just talking about being wrong, but about being a little...let's say not totally honest. Leo has always prided himself on being totally concrete, straight to the point. Unlike traditional teachers who speak to you in enigmas, Leo explains reality in detail. but there are a couple of points, the solipsism, this of death, in which he takes out the wild card: wake up stupid! this cannot be explained, you have to be awake to see it. Ah, well, then don't explain anything, repeat that I have to awake to see it and that about stop mental masturbation. no friend, your point is to unravel the riddle, not speak in riddles

Yes the solipsism thing .and the death thing .I think Leo himself is confused about these two topics . About solipsism he released a video saying that definitively solipsism is true. And then he took  it down and published another video called "infinity of gods " rambling about how there can be other conscious being besides oneself.  So it's a clear contradiction from his part .

Also, he seems very confused when it comes to death .he sometimes say death is infinite love .sometimes he say death is melting into infinity and be formless forever. Sometimes he say you will simply just change your forms and reincarnate as a new different form .and sometimes he says death is imaginary and it will never even happen . So which one is it ?? I guess you should pick the one that resonates with you mostly .

I think that sometimes Leo doesn't want his guru image to be challenged or proven to be false.  Some people have a massive ego. They believe they are superior to everyone else. Therefore when hit with a scenario where they are in the wrong their ego won't let them addmit it. Because it would contradict their superiority.

[Breakingthewall]

12 minutes ago, Someone here said:

think that sometimes Leo doesn't want his guru image to be challenged or proven to be false.  Some people have a massive ego. They believe they are superior to everyone else. Therefore when hit with a scenario where they are in the wrong their ego won't let them addmit it. Because it would contradict their superiority.

Could be. In the end we are human, no perfect by definition. 99.99% of people would go crazy with so much attention doing something so challenging. I personally would experience an unbearable burden. Cheer up Leo! Keep improving, polishing, innovating . you are a beacon in the darkness of human mud. demand the most of yourself

Edited September 2, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

I get that. But why are you placing more importance on first order truth than second order truth ?

For example..hunger is a second truth. It's first order is mere sensations in the stomach.  But if you don't plan to feed yourself for more than two weeks ..you will most likely fall dead .so second order truths are no less important than first order truth .

 

First of all you have never directly died.  You have directly suffered.  So it's more accurate to say you will.most likely suffer.  

I think the main point we are conveying when we speak of death here is that there is no objective reality.  No physical reality out there outside you.  The world doesn't go on and mourn your death because the world is held within You.  So when you die, Your Consciousness- God Consciousness- goes on.  All of this is a dream and melts away.  That is what is meant by death is imaginary.   The idea of death assumes there is "other" outside of you existing after your death.   But this is something you are imagining.  This ties together both solipsism and idealism in a nice little bow.  Of course the isms are also ideas

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Inliytened1

[Someone here]

26 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

First of all you have never directly died.  You have directly suffered.  So it's more accurate to say you will.most likely suffer.  

I think the main point we are conveying when we speak of death here is that there is no objective reality.  No physical reality out there outside you.  The world doesn't go on and mourn your death because the world is held within You.  So when you die, Your Consciousness- God Consciousness- goes on.  All of this is a dream and melts away.  That is what is meant by death is imaginary.   The idea of death assumes there is "other" outside of you existing after your death.   But this is something you are imagining.  This ties together both solipsism and idealism in a nice little bow.  Of course the isms are also ideas

 

 

Nope. You really and truly die.

And the self is an illusion . the idea that you are this separate and unique “poor little old me,” disconnected from the rest of the universe.

Every single atom that makes you up, is an atom that was made in a star. Every bit of you is the universe itself, that has come alive for a few moments in time, and has become aware of itself. You are the universe itself, becoming conscious of itself for a bit, and then you die. But every single conscious being in the world, is also the same universe.

So the thing is, while death is not an illusion, it’s impossible to experience death, since we experience consciousness with our brains. And since our brains doesn’t survive death, death is the lack of experience. So even if you die, and there isn’t another conscious being that is born for trillions of years in the universe, you would be that being, since you are the universe. But the thing is, you would experience it as if no time at all had passed since your death, and trillions of years later when the new being was born. It’s like a video recorder. You record a home video of yourself when you’re 13 years old. and then you don’t turn the video recorder on for 5 years. But when you play back your movie on the tv, you’d see yourself at 13, and then it would jump to you at 18, as if no time at all had passed in between them. thats what it will be like when you die. You’re next moment of life might be trillions of years from now, but it will be like no time at all had passed since you died.

[Inliytened1]

12 minutes ago, Someone here said:

 

Nope. You really and truly die.

And the self is an illusion .

If you ever had ego death physical death is really the same thing it's just that with ego death the dream hasn't dissolved yet.  But it gives you a taste of what death is like because you become God.  True ego death is awakening as God.   You are in God Consciousness.  It's just that the dream hasn't broke apart because you still have too many attachments.   So you are still in finite form.   With physical death you will just be pure formless, Infinite Consciousness.   You don't even need a form when you awake...it's almost as if you are formless.  So it's really the same thing plus form.  

Edited September 2, 2022 by Inliytened1

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, Jannes said:

@Someone here My unprofessional opinion:

Your ego mind wants death to be real. So you want a direct description for your ego mind to grasp. Leo said that you are dreaming and "death“ is just the end of the dream where you become your true form and infinite again. So you just wake up and there is no "death process“ that really happens.

You got it. I'm glad you got it. People on the forums don't really watch his videos and want him to feed them easy answers. There is no death process. If someone shoots you....you wake up LOL.

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

You got it. I'm glad you got it. People on the forums don't really watch his videos and want him to feed them easy answers. There is no death process. If someone shoots you....you wake up LOL.

Yup. 

[Someone here]

@Inliytened1 what's the difference/relationship between death (physical death) and awakening?  Are they the same thing?  

Because sometimes Leo equates death with awakening and sometimes he says death is imaginary..so does that follow that awakening is imaginary?  What am I missing here?

[Breakingthewall]

the dream analogy is not correct. it is, shall we say, a sketch, but with large gaps. Let's see. you go to sleep and dream, ok. the dream is the field of your consciousness creating forms. and one of those forms is you, the observer. the rest of the dream forms are not the observer, they are observed. the dream is a unity with apparent dualities. okay okay oh, and that's exactly how it is, on a real, infinite level?. well, it's not like that. who is dreaming reality on a real level? a subject who is the observer? No. there is no subject. there is the infinitely intelligent infinity aka god. this infinity is nothing. It is full potential. you, the dreamer who goes to bed, are not infinite, and you are something. you are not total potentiality. you are limited. infinity, on the other hand, is not limited to a single point of view, it can create multiple apparent dualities, it can do whatever it wants. and it does not dream automatically, but is deliberate. do not dream, create reality. is God. create universes out of nothing. he does it because he is infinite, and being infinite, his freedom is absolute, and that freedom is love. he loves himself completely. Being infinite, it is totally timeless, so it is not subject to laws. his will is law. it is omnipotent. it can create infinite viewpoints, infinite multiverses, in an instant. It's God, not you. your nightly dream is not the creative act of god. it vaguely resembles, no more

Edited September 2, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[axiom]

11 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Inliytened1 what's the difference/relationship between death (physical death) and awakening?  Are they the same thing?  

Because sometimes Leo equates death with awakening and sometimes he says death is imaginary..so does that follow that awakening is imaginary?  What am I missing here?

Death is an illusion because there is noone there to die. 

In a way, death is already the case.

 

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, axiom said:

Death is an illusion because there is noone there to die. 

In a way, death is already the case.

 

So which one is it ? An illusion ?or already the case ? I'm still confused. You can't say death =Awakening =God =Love =Truth ..and at the same time say that death is imaginary or that death is already the case ...these three are not the same thing.  Not sure how does Leo equate them  .

@Breakingthewall

 

Death and life are real in this dimension    as much as a dream seems real when we are in it. There is however a much greater reality we know after death, that makes our physical passing look very much like an illusion.

Our human lives are really an experience of moving our awareness through an infinite field of loving energy that has no beginning and end. Our brains filter this energy and give us the perception of a solid reality. Even our science admits that that are ranges of energy beyond sight and hearing, and now in quantum phsyics there is acknowledgement that at the subatomic level, where we observe something it appears as matter whereas moments before it was only a “probability wave.”

So in the end I think it depends on what infinity decides to dream in the next lifetime .If it decides to dream of being a dog or a cat or an ant or a human..or of nothing at all (with the Literal meaning of the word nothing)..then nobody can stop infinity from dreaming whatsoever the fuck it wants .

[Breakingthewall]

in your night dream, everything is finite, limited. it is limited to your experiences, to you. reality is infinite. everything is infinite. a street tree is infinite. a car too. It has his own point of view.  everything has it, even your gym bag. you, the observer, are not god. you are one with god. since you are infinite. but you are a lens of God, another one. remove the lens, and god remains. when you die, the lens disappears. there is death, of the lens. infinity, obviously, is immortal. if you are identified with the lens, you will die. Besides, your life will be shit. If you transcend the lens and open yourself to infinity, you will be immortal. And free. 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Razard86]

21 minutes ago, axiom said:

Death is an illusion because there is noone there to die. 

In a way, death is already the case.

 

This is true, but the opposite is true as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_804F4K85ds&ab_channel=BestofSadhguru%26mooji

[axiom]

47 minutes ago, Someone here said:

So which one is it ? An illusion ? Or already the case ?

Both.

A self suffers the illusion that it can die. But the self is illusory, and thus a self can never die.

There is noone here already. This could be described as "death", but it's just a metaphor.

Edited September 2, 2022 by axiom