Mega thread - Discussion of Male role models and list your male role model

[Ulax]

@Nilsi Because you have to learn to love the parts of you. And loving yourself is stage green.

By butterflies and rainbows, I suspect you are saying something similar to trauma recovery is more than just learning to love yourself. And I agree.

I think it takes work with stage red, and blue, too. I.e. red for enforcing boundaries, and blue for establishing your boundaries which are important. However, establishing and enforcing healthy boundaries requires loving yourself if you lack stage green.

Loving yourself is the majority of trauma work. And its stage green. Therefore, the majority of trauma recovery work is stage green.

[Nilsi]

4 minutes ago, Ulax said:

@Nilsi Loving yourself is the majority of trauma work. And its stage green. Therefore, the majority of trauma recovery work is stage green.

Sometimes loving yourself means talking to a cute girl or lifting some heavy weights. I agree with the self-love, but not with reducing it down to stage green.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Nilsi

[The Mystical Man]

Adyashanti is a great man. In fact, he's the best man that I've found so far. He is a gift to humanity.

Edited August 25, 2022 by The Mystical Man

[Ulax]

4 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

@Ulax

Usually the best way to overcome trauma is to prove your trauma wrong showing yourself that you're very capable. There are lot of other methods and some approaches work for some and different to others. So people should contemplate what makes them feel that they're weak and then do things needed to change that picture of themself. Whatever it takes you should do it. And like @Nilsi said you don't necessarily need to do that work solely using stage green perspective. What I am talking about is what works for majority of the cases.

I mostly disagree.

"There are lot of other methods and some approaches work for some and different to others. So people should contemplate what makes them feel that they're weak and then do things needed to change that picture of themself"

I think the issue here is that when you're traumatised, without adequate psychoeducation, you will generally have a completely inaccurate picture of why you're 'weak' and what you need to do to overcome it. Alice miller is a famous psychotherapist who talks about adults who were abused as kids. She talks about the concept of idealisation. It refers to a phenomena where those abused as children will often idealise their childhoods. So, if these adults sat down and tried to contemplate, without psychoeducation, why they suffer as they do, they wouldn't be able to accurately pinpoint it. Often because of popular society, they'll blame it on something like the fact they're not getting laid, or that they're not rich, or something else other than the actual cause.

"Usually the best way to overcome trauma is to prove your trauma wrong showing yourself that you're very capable"

Regarding this, I guess I would somewhat agree. I think its important to prove to ourselves that we are capable.

However, I think we'd disagree on what process we'd need to use, re showing ourselves as being capable. We also may disagree on what it means to be capable.

[Emrie]

I couldn't really have any male role models because I'm not completely a man anyways, or if I did, what I would admire in them isn't their masculinity. In general I don't think I have any strong role models of any gender.

I care more about people's values, how they express themselves, how they're contributing to the world, and how they relate to others. I care a lot about compassion, empathy, and open-mindedness, more than anything. And generally speaking I would say it takes a lot of interacting with someone before I can really start making my mind up on someone.

Leo is someone I admire a lot. Then it's a lot of people I'm close with IRL that you wouldn't know.

[Yarco]

What's the point of making a thread asking guys for their role models, only to invalidate them and tell that they're wrong? Why don't you just tell us who we should / are allowed to have as role models then 

I'm not gonna bother sharing mine if you're just going to tell me they're toxic or too stage blue/red/orange/rainbow/glitter and dismiss men who've had a meaningful impact on my life.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Yarco

[Ulax]

7 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Sometimes loving yourself means talking to a cute girl or lifting some heavy weights. I agree with the self-love, but not with reducing it down to stage green.

@Nilsi It could do. However, it would matter on the place that talking to a cute girl or lifting some weights was coming from. For example, if part of you wanted to talk to a cute girl, and by you talking to her it helped that part build trust with you then sure.

However, if someone was to use either of those things in the typical way they're used, i.e. to prove something to oneself, to push oneself out their comfort zone, emotional gratification etc. That does not work for self love. Self love is primarily about acceptance and care for what is, making it a stage green phenomena.

[Kksd74628]

@Ulax

As I said, use the method that is needed and for majority of people the problem is that they don't have enough self-esteem. It seems that you are talking from your own experience and it's great to see that you found what worked for you. All that I was trying to say was that for majority of people doing things to prove their capability is one of the key things they need to do. That's why I gave that perspective instead of other perspectives I could have said. I don't dissagree on your method, but just tried show where people should start this thing.

[Kksd74628]

@Nilsi

16 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Sometimes loving yourself means talking to a cute girl or lifting some heavy weights. I agree with the self-love, but not with reducing it down to stage green.

Exactly! That's what I was trying to say. Much love to you <3

[Ulax]

@Kksd74628 I get you. I do agree with you on some things. I.e. I agree with you about integrating all levels of the spiral.

I just think we disagree on what will solve certain psychological issues men/ people are facing.

I do speak from my own experience. However, I also speak from a substantial background of formal and self study. For example, attachment theory, IFS, modern trauma therapies, and spiral dynamics.

 

[Danioover9000]

@Nilsi

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

Daniel Schmachtenberger, Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate, Joe Rogan, Ken Wilber

   Nice list, was gonna list them too, plus Leo Gura, Bruce Lee, Arnold, Leonardo Da Vinci, and Nikola Tesla, and some ancient rulers of history.

[Kksd74628]

@Ulax

We don't disagree even on what will work on trauma. I acknowledge that your method works, but you have to also see that there are more than one way to do things. I'd even advice to combine deep introspection with an actual work on personal life to achieve best results possible. Point I am trying to make is that even if hammer is your favourite tool, you can't build whole house with it. Problem usually in debates and discussions is that people try to find which perspective is the best one while the answer is that the best one is that which includes all other perspectives.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Kksd74628

[Ulax]

@Kksd74628 Okay, I still do think we disagree.

I generally agree that there are more than one way to do things. However, there are many things that in so doing will only bring you X results and will not give you Y results. For example, if don't have sufficient stage green experiences in your life at the right times then you will not love yourself - no amount of stage orange, red, or blue experiences/ integration can make up for that.

Also, I don't understand why you are referring to by my 'method'.

I do agree with your metaphor and your commentary on debates. However, I don't think they apply critically to any of what I've said in this thread.

 

[Tyler Robinson]

17 minutes ago, KH2 said:

Being able to fight makes you less aggressive in the long run. And much more likely to defend your loved ones

And what about the guy who gets hurts and injured in a fight? He doesn't have family or loved ones? 

Isn't it best to avoid a fight when you can? 

 

[zurew]

1 minute ago, Tyler Robinson said:

And what about the guy who gets hurts and injured in a fight? He doesn't have family or loved ones? 

Isn't it best to avoid a fight when you can? 

Yes it is the best to avoid to fight, but he is right on all his points, namely that if you learn to fight you will be less agressive, you will be more respectful to other people because you will know that shit can get real, you will learn discipline, and you will be able to defend yourself and also you will be more confident in general.

[Tyler Robinson]

Just now, zurew said:

Yes it is the best to avoid to fight, but he is right on all his points, namely that if you learn to fight you will be less agressive, you will be more respectful to other people because you will know that shit can get real, you will learn discipline, and you will be able to defend yourself and also you will be more confident in general.

I think Discipline can also be learned through ethical principles of behavior towards each other where you decide that you won't hurt the other party. 

That's how gentlemen have always been. 

As for protecting your loved ones, there are jails and courts. 

We ain't living in a jungle. 

 

[Kksd74628]

@Ulax

Understand that your argument could be flipped around and phrased like that. No amount of stage green experiences/ integration will make up for lack of experiences in stage orange, red and blue for example. You are trying to make stage green look like the best stage of those, but all of them are equally important and actually you couldn't even reach stage green well without having lower stages in good shape. I mean you could, but skipping stages and rushing in process just makes more blind spots that you have to solve in the future anyways.

I have made it very easy for you to admit that we actually agree on things, but it feels that you are trying to defend your stage green perspective for some reason that I don't even know why. Yeah maybe it was very precious, irreplaceable and useful for your situation and situations that you have heard. I say it one more time, I am not denying the power of using stage green perspectives to heal trauma, but I am trying to show that it is not superior and people need to find what works for them. You can't know that and I do neither.

So I ask nicely if you could just relax a little and allow yourself to see other side of this discussion too. The point is because it seems that you actually have some shadow work to do in lower stages and you can't make yourself to work on those before you admit that they are equally important. How I see that is, because you have very negative approach to these masculine traits and lower stages in general. Contemplate a little towards my points and give it a change that what I try to show you is actually very important.

Don't answer unconsciously, slow down and really think about your response. And try to be little more gentle like real man who has integrated stage green would be <3

Edited August 25, 2022 by Kksd74628

[Kksd74628]

@Tyler Robinson

When we are talking about learning to fight we are not talking about learning to fight in real scenario , but instead in boxing gym. Much love <3

[Nilsi]

47 minutes ago, Ulax said:

@Nilsi Self love is primarily about acceptance and care for what is, making it a stage green phenomena.

This has nothing to do with stage green, I don't know where you got that idea from.

[zurew]

19 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

I think Discipline can also be learned through ethical principles of behavior towards each other where you decide that you won't hurt the other party. 

That's how gentlemen have always been. 

As for protecting your loved ones, there are jails and courts. 

We ain't living in a jungle. 

You don't need to hurt other people in order to learn fighting. 

Yes there are jails and courts but those are useless if you get attacked and you can't run anywhere.

Doing fighting will make you more respectful and you get humbled. Most people nowadays have a fall sense of confidency and they don't really know that they can be in real danger if they are not respectful.

 

I wouldn't say that learning fighting is a necessity nowadays, but why wouldn't you learn it if you can get a whole pack of all the goods?(learning discipline, getting humbled, learning self defense, getting more confident etc) Because of all that, I would argue that learning to fight is one of the best things you can do, because you get the whole pack by doing one activity.

Edited August 25, 2022 by zurew