Andrew Tate - Good or corrupted message for society??

[Ulax]

@Raptorsin7 Have you checked out Owen Cook before?

[hyruga]

 

33 minutes ago, Ulax said:

@Raptorsin7 Have you checked out Owen Cook before?

Owen Cook is too long winded. Too much theory and he only cares about increasing his own networth, not yours.

[mmKay]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't care if it was legal. That's not the issue. The issue is ethics.

The whole game of scamming and exploiting people is that it's done in a legal grey zone.

Do you understand how badly I could abuse and exploit your daughter without doing anything technically illegal? I could make the effect on here psyche worse than rape.

And this was only finantial and emotional rape

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by mmKay

[mmKay]

1 hour ago, Ulax said:

@Leo Gura Leo is there an alternative role model you could recommend to these folks here?

One that will likely resonate with them but imbue more healthy versions of red and orange.

 

James Marshall hits all the checkboxes for a high quality masculinity role model. His focus is mostly daygame. 

Also Alex James ( ex RSD coach) 

 

One of his core concepts is deep self-love" and " There is no reason you're not good enough " . This guy turned down the toxicity from pickup to a minimum. 

Todd Valentine is okay as ( as in effective ) but idk about his ethics

Edited August 26, 2022 by mmKay

[Danioover9000]

@UpperMaster

On 8/24/2022 at 1:39 PM, UpperMaster said:

Right now, Andrew Tate is one of the most well-known figures in the self-help industry. He is very charismatic and attractive to the youth. He is not afraid to voice his controversial principles and life philosophy.

Recently he has been silenced by social media as people took offense to his opinions on the treatment of woman.

I personally don't agree with all the things he has said. I do, however, applaud his clever and deliberate approach to gaining influence on social media. I greatly admire his "experience is king" approach of living, as well as his positive outlook and mental tenacity. 

In response to his social media ban, he published a video clarifying himself at https://www.freetopg.com

I am curious to what this forum thinks on Andrew Tate? Does he spread a good or corrupted message for society?

Let me know

   Relative to the potential and actual degree of harm. For some men with deep insecurities, Andrew Tate might be the one that's making them do something about and is acting as a source of inspiration for some, but for some men, that lifestyle is short term and not necessary. In the grand scheme of things, Andrew Tate's advice is very short term. Depends on how you look at him.

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, hyruga said:

 

Owen Cook is too long winded. Too much theory and he only cares about increasing his own networth, not yours.

@hyruga I actually mostly agree with you. However, I think we have to realistic regarding who we recommend to the demographic who resonates with Tate like figures. I think Cook is a realistic person to recommend, who represents a healthier message than Tate, at least in most aspects, imo. 

40 minutes ago, mmKay said:

 

James Marshall hits all the checkboxes for a high quality masculinity role model. His focus is mostly daygame. 

Also Alex James ( ex RSD coach) 

 

One of his core concepts is deep self-love" and " There is no reason you're not good enough " . This guy turned down the toxicity from pickup to a minimum. 

Todd Valentine is okay as ( as in effective ) but idk about his ethics

@mmKay I think there is a lot of value to those two mentors. I've watched a decent amount of both of them, and respect various aspects of their teachings. I think they would be healthier folks to be taken on as role models than Tate and Owen Cook. So it makes sense to me why you recommend them. However, I wouldn't recommend them as role models to the demographic who resonates with Tate. I don't think its realistic to expect that Tate fans would resonate with these two.

Thinking about it again, It might even be better to recommend Todd first than Cook, who, imo, is the most analytical and closest to being manipulative out of the RSD guys I know. I think Tate resonators would click most with him. Then hope they can absorb some higher consciousness ideas alongside him from the other instructors. That said, because of the youtube pickup culling, I doubt whether much of the RSD teaching are really that accessible to people.

[UpperMaster]

3 hours ago, Consept said:

You really have to be careful with this type of teacher bro, how he comes across to me is someone who thinks he has all the answers and has more knowledge than anyone else, Im not overly familiar with his content but i have watched a few of his videos in the past and seen him post on here and this is the impression that i get. Now really look into yourself and consider that what attracts you to this type of teacher is a longing for certainty, people like Trump, Reeves, potentially Tate, offer very clear cut 'truth' and are very certain about it, this is extremely attractive and it reinforces itself because it lets you live in that truth as well as have excellent arguments for why this is true if anyone questions you.

 

Very well said argument, Tate (as you suspected) is a self proclaimed Morpheus. His "teachings" center on the idea of freeing people from continuous servitude to the government. Tate does give people a sense of certainty, he advertises his "cut the shit attitude", which is why most hard core Tate fans are very arrogant. Many of the "Truths" Tate teaches, are be justified by real life, making them believable to many people.

For eg his teaching might go like: What is true relies completely on what you believe is true. If you believe in ghosts and you here a sound at night you'll think "ohhhhh its a ghost" and you'll get scared. If you don't believe in ghosts then the damn ghost doesn't exist

A more controversial teaching might go like: Woman cheating is worse than when a man cheats because a man can have sex with other woman yet be emotionally attached to his main chick. A woman on the other hand is always emotionally attached to whoever she has sex with.

And on and on, you get the idea.

 

Although Tate's sense of truth is skewed, his arrogance still can help people. People that take on his attitude are more likely to get shit done than overthink. This "cut to the shit" attitude is what some people need, especially unsuccessful and lazy men. It stops overthinking and focuses more on taking action and getting what you want.

Edited August 26, 2022 by UpperMaster

[Consept]

2 hours ago, UpperMaster said:

 

Although Tate's sense of truth is skewed, his arrogance still can help people. People that take on his attitude are more likely to get shit done than overthink. This "cut to the shit" attitude is what some people need, especially unsuccessful and lazy men. It stops overthinking and focuses more on taking action and getting what you want.

I agree in that the message of stop making excuses and go get it is crucial and can change some peoples lives, Tate has identified this problem in young men, the issue is the overall rhetoric that comes with this message and is not so easy to separate if youre a follower of him. His end goal solution for his followers is to accumulate wealth and materialistic things and be a top alpha guy, I get why this is appealing but most guys that now follower didnt even think about getting these material things, he has sold this idea to them to the point that they will now make their life purpose bout getting these things. He is saying that he will help you get out of the matrix but attachment to material things is precisely what keeps you in the matrix, he has probably done more to get people into the capitalist, material world then any bmw advert or any consumer website could because hes convinced people that this should be their life purpose. 

Also whats worse is that i actually believe he knows better, if you read his book there are some highly developed ideas and thoughts in there so he should be aware of the trap but still he markets himself in this way, with cars, women etc. I get why he does that as it brings more eyeballs but i dont think his followers see this. 

So overall the question is, is he providing the best solution for men, i would argue not really 

[ZzzleepingBear]

For those interested in the kind of motivation and "alpha male" stuff, I believe alot of the motivation and result chasing that comes out of that type of mindset, may be possible by the neglecting of a nuanced world view where you become less and less relatable to others who doesn't share the same narrow view on things. And that in itself is highly problematic once such mindset becomes calcified in ones mind imo.

Here is a interesting video on a guy who's mindset probably overlapped alot with Tate, since it's all about being "alpha" and getting "The bag" and "girls" in the end for alot of these people and their followers. I'm not suggesting that everyone will end up the same way as for this guy, but the mentality that many try to get at, seem quite narrow and almost devoid of any authentic compassion from what I can tell.

I bet that alot of Tates fan would endorse the kind of message that this guy may have put out there if only he had got more internet exposure.

[Raptorsin7]

8 hours ago, Girzo said:

100%, if by wisdom you mean ability to see his childish behaviour as childish cosplaying of a wise man and by capable being able to use your talents in skillful ways to achieve your goals.

And also, it's an unecessary comparison.

You didn't even answer the question. You just said TJ Reeves is childish. I'm going to assume you think you are wiser and more capable, in which case I would say read his list and see which one of those things you're actually dong.

[Raptorsin7]

8 hours ago, zurew said:

Yes, if you are critiqually engaging with conspiracy theories, then yeah you could say that you are doing "truth seeking", but most of the time people who are deep into conspiracies , they are using selective scepticism. They are very sceptical about any mainstream narrative or news, but they often easily buy into the alternative media, alternative narratives and sources just because those are not mainstream and they are not using the same standards for both.

How many people do you know that are into conspiracies? What metric are you using to asserting most are not truth seeking? Seems like more baseless assumptions, that's typical of this forum. Reflexive dismissal of what they don't understand, and then you look down it lol.

8 hours ago, zurew said:

If TJ Reeves is a truth seeker according to you, then why he isn't open to criticism and disagreement?

Also its really funny, that he was talking about the problem of censorship in one of his videos, when he is doing hardcore censorship as well.

Because no one is perfect, and often times someone can be "disagreeing" but in reality they are closeminded and it's not worth engaging. How many threads does Leo lock? Isn't he a truth seeker? 

He's talking about government censorship of the truth, not banning people on his forum because they think they already know it all and are not interested in learning.

My point is not TJ Reeves is the most developed human ever. My point is he's more developed than all of you, and yet stuff that is dismissed here, he takes seriously, so it's worth reflecting on why that is. 

Take it for what it's worth because i'm a mad man haha, but as I've gotten deeper into the truth and my mind has naturally gravitated towards conspiracies, conservative thinkers etc. I used to reflexively dismiss them, but now my view has changed. I followed TJ Reeves when he posted here, and even talked to him a few times, and he had a similar evolution. 

TJ Reeves said he started the BLM chapter at John Hopkins, now he's way more conservative. Really makes you think.

[Raptorsin7]

@undeather I would agree that is many of the things you're criticizing him of being. But I would argue that doesn't negate the truth of anything he's saying, or at least it's not an outright reason.

Imagine I applied the same standard to Leo. Narcissism, childish behavior, sexism, etc I can provide ample evidence of Leo being guilty of all of this, and yet no one here would dismiss what he's saying on this basis.

My guess is you clashed over Covid, and that's what got you kicked out of the forum. Imo the wisest people i've met have either reluctantly agreed to get the vaccine or they outright dismiss it as harmful, but I assume a large part of your identity as a doctor makes it very difficult to see that.

And my question wasn't about being wise in an absolute sense. It's just looking at TJ reeves would you say are wiser and more capable. I can answer for myself, no.

[Raptorsin7]

7 hours ago, Ulax said:

Have you checked out Owen Cook before?

Yes.

I'm sure he's got some good things to say about dating, but it's laughable to consider him a quality PUA coach. The fact that Leo recommends this guy and thinks he's qualified to give advice about masculine role models is hilarious. 

[Raptorsin7]

57 minutes ago, Consept said:

Also whats worse is that i actually believe he knows better, if you read his book there are some highly developed ideas and thoughts in there so he should be aware of the trap but still he markets himself in this way, with cars, women etc. I get why he does that as it brings more eyeballs but i dont think his followers see this. 

So overall the question is, is he providing the best solution for men, i would argue not really 

If you don't have money, life is 100x harder than it needs to be. If you don't have money then it makes sense to be fully committed to putting yourself in a position of somewhat financial security. Tate's message is motivating young men to do just that.

And no teacher/teaching is the "best" solution. They are relative to a person's development.

Anyone who seriously follows Rupert Spira's videos will be misled too. I can take a similar stance towards Rupert that many here are taking towards Tate, there's plenty to criticize. Charing for each video on his website (greed), retreat costs, misleading people about the length of the path, etc

[Raptorsin7]

This forum has a collective red shadow. That's why Tate triggers everyone so much, and why this forum has a disproportionate number of schizos, autistics, etc

[Ulax]

@Raptorsin7 I think Owen is a quality PUA coach, and I don't find that video particularly persuasive, from what I saw of it.

I just think its a mistake to select Tate like figures as your role model. I think its unhealthy and I doubt the usefulness of those types, especially relative to other potential mentors.

But, hey, if we have a difference of opinion, then we have a difference opinion.

[Raptorsin7]

Just now, Ulax said:

@Raptorsin7 I think Owen is a quality PUA coach, and I don't find that video particularly persuasive, from what I saw of it.

I just think its a mistake to select Tate like figures as your role model. I think its unhealthy and I doubt the usefulness of those types, especially relative to other potential mentors.

But, hey, if we have a difference of opinion, then we have a difference opinion.

That's fair we can agree to disagree.

I think John Elite is a superior PUA coach, if you listen to his videos he eviscerates RSD and shows a lot of flaws in his approach. I think everyone can be useful to learn from. Bruce Lee... "Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is uniquely your own" (I would apply this to Hitler as well )

[Ulax]

@Raptorsin7 Nice one.

I haven't really seen enough to comment on John Elite.

Ye I think everyone has nuggets of wisdom to share for sure. However, I think a lot of people will give a lot of untrue advice alongside their occasional nuggets of wisdom.

And, to my mind and experience, when learning a new craft its very difficult to separate the true from the untrue as you don't have the reference experiences to evaluate against. Therefore, I think its important to be very selective with who your mentors are.

[Leo Gura]

The fact that Owen was himself a hard case newbie and not a natural is exactly what makes him so relatable.

Learning game from naturals if you are not a natural is ineffective.

People who are extreme extroverts don't really know how to teach game. Because their extroversion IS their game, and they did not develop it through massive work.

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

How many people do you know that are into conspiracies? What metric are you using to asserting most are not truth seeking? Seems like more baseless assumptions, that's typical of this forum. Reflexive dismissal of what they don't understand, and then you look down it lol.

Its not baseless assumptions, its personal experience. Now notice, that i haven't said that all people who are into conspiracy theories are necessarily have to be that way. I am open minded to certain conspiracy theories, but i don't automatically believe in them just because they are able to give me an alternative explanation to an event.

What metric do I use?

• Open mindedness (if that particular person isn't capable to explore alternative or in this case the mainstream narratives, then that person is way too biased and he/she doesn't care about truth, but caring more about being right)
• Being able to use critical thinking objectively and not selectively (using the same standards for both sides)
• Being able to represent and steelman the opposite side in a good faith, well intentioned, well informed way.
• Being able to use the least amount of assumptions to explain an event or to create a theory.
• Not automatically assuming the worst stuff about the opposite side
• One of the most important one: Being always open to the possibility of being wrong

1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

TJ Reeves said he started the BLM chapter at John Hopkins, now he's way more conservative. Really makes you think

My point is not TJ Reeves is the most developed human ever. My point is he's more developed than all of you, and yet stuff that is dismissed here, he takes seriously, so it's worth reflecting on why that is. 

 

It seems to me that you have certain beliefs and a certain ideology and you found a person, who is exactly compatible with your beliefs and with your ideology and you automatically put on him the "he must be the most developed and the most wise person ever" label and anyone who disagrees with you, you automatically assume, that he/she  must be underdeveloped or bad faith.

1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

How many threads does Leo lock? Isn't he a truth seeker? 

Leo was always gravitating towards some level of censorship,but on the otherhand, it seems that Tj Reeves was/is really against censorship, but at the same time he is/was using hardcore censorship as well. 

So how does that make any sense to you?

Edited August 26, 2022 by zurew