Andrew Tate - Good or corrupted message for society??

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, undeather said:

He seems to be a man of integrity.

Do you deny that he scammed men of thousands of dollars via his web cam girls?

What integrity then?

How did he make his money? How did he become popular? Through scams and pyramid schemes. It's obvious just by reading his energy for a few minutes that he will fuck you over as soon as it serves his agenda.

If you are dumb enough to trust your daughter or your money in Tate's hands, you're incredibly naive, and frankly, you deserve him screwing you, just to learn the lesson.

The best way to describe Tate is like this: If your daughter brought home a guy like that, and you were a responsible father, you would take him aside and tell him, "If I see you make one sketchy move around my daughter, I will cut your dick off."

[Raptorsin7]

34 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Whatever dude. You are like those TikTok channels that take everything out of context and blow it out of proportion just to make their point. I was obviously not championing rape, I just expressed my appreciation for the dynamics of power and playing that game well.

Ironically you are playing power games as well in this thread, with all your bad faith communication forcing people into a reactive position.

Isn't it funny how they demonize Andrew Tate, yet act like this in their criticism

[LSD-Rumi]

@Leo Gura Thank God You are a sane person Leo.

[DrugsBunny]

How is it that people who do consciousness work can still be duped by the pathetic likes of Andrew Tate? 

[Nilsi]

31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not whatever. When your own survival is threatened, suddenly you sing a different tune. Notice that.

Duh. I'm aware of that. You can play for power or you can abuse your power, I was talking about the former, you about the latter. Making money or picking up girls is a struggle for power, always. Tate is just particularly good at it, and is just doing it for its own sake, where as you may do it for more "virtuous" reasons. Yet, when all is said and done, I can still appreciate someone who plays the game of power well, and you can't take that away from me 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Nilsi

[Raptorsin7]

The better question is who would you rather have your daughter marry Leo or Andrew Tate.

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Raptorsin7

[Nilsi]

13 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

The better question is who would you rather have your daughter marry Leo or Andrew Tate.

 

That's kind of sleezy, but precisely the irony of this whole debate. Neither of them is trying to be your perfect son in law though, so that's a silly standard anyways.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Nilsi

[ZzzleepingBear]

 

This is what I learned from him.

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, KH2 said:

These men are fucking losers.

So you're cool with me scamming you with the next course I release? Cause you're just a fucking loser if I trick you into buying it.

And if I exploit your daughter into becoming my sex slave, you're cool with that too, cause she's just a loser who deserved it?

The bias and lack of ethics and wisdom you guys display is disturbing. I should write down your names and release a scam course just for you, cause you're gonna be dumb enough to buy it.

[Nilsi]

3 minutes ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

 

This is what I learned from him.

That's pretty good ngl

[Leo Palhano]

6 minutes ago, KH2 said:

OF COURSE if I had a daughter, I would try to raise to to want the most non toxic, nice guy. Doesn't mean that that's gonna be my strategy for myself LOL

good luck having a loving relationship while being a toxic, selfish man

[zurew]

55 minutes ago, KH2 said:

These men are fucking losers. They would pay for girls anyway. Don't you understand? If it wasn't Tate's webcam business, it would be Onlyfans, or some other platform.

Thats fine, but thats still doesn't make Tate's act moral or okay, its just shows that he is capable to do scammy stuff and he is okay with fucking over some people in order to make money. If we would to use your logic, we could justify  any bad/scammy act, because "others would have done it anyways".

He has that webcam business and he has his casinos, with both of those businesses he is relying on scamming people and fucking people over in one way or other. So one thing is clear, that he doesn't have much integrity and he values money over people.

55 minutes ago, KH2 said:

Where is that pyramid scheme?

His new HU doesn't seem to be a pyramid scheme, but still, the first HU was a clear cut pyramid scheme.

Edited August 25, 2022 by zurew

[UpperMaster]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I hope you extend me the same respect and admiration when I rape your daughter.

Stalin killed millions, he is a devil if there ever was one. He used his power and skillful manipulation to satisfy his greed. I wouldn't go near him, and I assume you wouldn't too. We agree on that.

Although we've strayed away from the core of this debate, I think it is necessary we make a strong distinction between skill and the person.

Stalin was a horrible guy but that doesn't mean he wasn't an extremely skillful manipulator, that carefully placed himself at the right time and the right place, acting the right way, doing the right thing to secure his place of power. Gaining power is a skill like anything else, you must have a knack for psychology and be very creative and careful. His skill on it's own can be appreciated as it is its own genius (an evil one). People do appreciate his skill, that is why George Orwell used his story as a central plot for The Animal Farm.

A less gruesome example would be conmen like Charles Ponzi or Victor Lustig. If you read more about con-men, specifically the best ones, you will realize that it is less of a shortcut and more of a skill of its own. Not everyone can pull elaborate cons off, and are very likely to get caught. People may dislike conmen because of their dishonesty, yet still acknowledge the skill used for conning. 

The best swordsmen in the world might be the most ruthless murderer, but that doesn't take away form the fact that he is the best swordsmen.

[UpperMaster]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And if I exploit your daughter into becoming my sex slave, you're cool with that too, cause she's just a loser who deserved it?

No I agree that's dumb. But man, since when was Andrew Tate a rapist? Your either over-blowing how bad the guy is, or I'm very ignorant and don't know much about him. I don't think he raped anyone, or in charge of human trafficking, the proof is non-existent.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by UpperMaster

[Wilhelm44]

Tate is simply exploiting the masculine wound. And he's not helping to heal it.

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, undeather said:

There is no doubt in my mind that Tate is or was involved in many shady/unethical business enterprises over the years and there is an appropriate amount of criticism to be dealt there. However, reality is just more nuanced than that and it's quiet astonishing how fast some individuals recoil to their tribalistic, black or whtie tendencies as soon as his name gets mentioned. To be clear, I personally DON'T think that Tate is a valid role model for younger generations. I have criticized him before, his views on women are regressive and his take on mental health is, if not complteley wrong, then highly partial at minimum. 

The fact is that none of you know him. You dont know his "real" intentions. You just dont. You might think you do, but you dont. If you cant see this, then you need to work on your sensemaking ecology.  All you have are clips, some long form podcast episodes and a tiny amount of objectifiable facts. Everything else is filled by your projection and lack of critical thinking/research. Now if you judge him from the limited amount of information we have, then you can't come to either concluson. There is shady shit but also likeable stuff. He could be a dark triad narcissist OR he is just stuck at a certain level of conciousness which he acts out coherently. 

It's funny to me that Leo, a guy who has to deal with constant misrepresentation all over the internet, cant quiet grasp the scope of the situation. If you comb through all the accusations against Tate in the last months  - anything from rape, human trafficking, misoginy or simply being an asshole, then none of them really hold up to scrutiny. It's mostly exaggerated, taken out of context or made up completely. In fact, there are reports of women AND men who have met or even worked for him - and you know what...almost unanimously they paint a picture of a man who acts respectful and generous among his fellow human beings. I get this impression too to be honest - he doesn't seem like a very hateful man. He does not act agressive when challenged. He seems to be a man of integrity. 

Now let's get to "Hustler's university" -  it's cringe to be honest. All those "get rich"-courses kinda are.
But is it a scam? I really dont think so. There is content on there and if you are a complete noob at this kind of stuff, then you might get some decent value out of it. 50$ a month for a course is definitely not a scam - I mean just look at all those proclaimed self-help gurusor "coaches" popping up all over the internet right now. 997$ for a course, 300$ for a two hour coaching session, 5000$ for the whole package..... by whom? Mostly nobodies.

I cant believe I have to defend Tate - but most discussions about him are just incredibly one sided and that's wrong. Throughout the last week, I silently observed and read through some posts and this forum and reddit - it's just so obvious that both sides, the haters & the fanboys, mostly act from a emotionally hijacked paradigm. He is heavily centered around a stage orange/blue level of conciousness - and if you want to criticise his views, then this is where to meet him. 

 

1. You don't have to know someone at a deep level to know their intentions. For example why do people post publicly on social media platforms. To get attention. You can fight this, you can misconstrue this but this is a fact. Only a self-deluded person would deny this. Why do you think humans are so easy to manipulate? Because we don't have to KNOW you to figure you out. Why? Easy I'll explain in the next point.

2. Socrates says KNOW THYSELF. What many of you don't understand is the more you learn how you operate, the more you learn how OTHERS operate. If you study human history, you are studying YOUR HISTORY. Psychology if you go deep enough reveals there is no main difference between you and other humans. You just have to release a lot of your biases to see it. 

3. Through knowledge of your individual self, comes knowledge of all others when the boundaries between yourself and other dissolves. Why do you FBI profilers can predict human behavior? Why do you FBI negotiators know how to get hostages released? People are VERY simple. I can read people very well without having to MEET them. Each behavior you do expresses specific motivations and beliefs you hold as person. 

4. Tate's main drive was to get attention and make money. You might say how do we know this? Because he only entered the red pill AFTER it became mainstream. If he cared about the issues he would have been in the red pill earlier. Which means it wasn't on his radar which means he didn't care about it.  Next Tate has a history of using manipulation tactics to get money. This means Tate houses a lot of fear, it means he views the world as evil, and believes his actions are justified. Only fearful people use manipulation to get what they want. So he presents a bravado or tough guy image to hide his fears. This is why guys like him and Trump believe that showing any weakness is stupid. Why? Because they fear being seen as weak. This means they care TOO much about how others view them and will only present themselves in images that display power and control. 

This is very easy to do. Its so easy its sad. You don't have to KNOW someone to do this. Why? Because there is no difference between one human and another, the only difference is expression. Expression of form, expression of psyche. Expression of form= Your human body and all the details associated with it. Expression of psyche= Your perspective which was forged through your early experiences.

The more you dive deep into observing your own behavior and why certain fears arise you will discover that those same issues you have ALL HUMANS HAVE to some degree.

[undeather]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

1. You don't have to know someone at a deep level to know their intentions. For example why do people post publicly on social media platforms. To get attention. You can fight this, you can misconstrue this but this is a fact. Only a self-deluded person would deny this. Why do you think humans are so easy to manipulate? Because we don't have to KNOW you to figure you out. Why? Easy I'll explain in the next point.

2. Socrates says KNOW THYSELF. What many of you don't understand is the more you learn how you operate, the more you learn how OTHERS operate. If you study human history, you are studying YOUR HISTORY. Psychology if you go deep enough reveals there is no main difference between you and other humans. You just have to release a lot of your biases to see it. 

3. Through knowledge of your individual self, comes knowledge of all others when the boundaries between yourself and other dissolves. Why do you FBI profilers can predict human behavior? Why do you FBI negotiators know how to get hostages released? People are VERY simple. I can read people very well without having to MEET them. Each behavior you do expresses specific motivations and beliefs you hold as person. 

4. Tate's main drive was to get attention and make money. You might say how do we know this? Because he only entered the red pill AFTER it became mainstream. If he cared about the issues he would have been in the red pill earlier. Which means it wasn't on his radar which means he didn't care about it.  Next Tate has a history of using manipulation tactics to get money. This means Tate houses a lot of fear, it means he views the world as evil, and believes his actions are justified. Only fearful people use manipulation to get what they want. So he presents a bravado or tough guy image to hide his fears. This is why guys like him and Trump believe that showing any weakness is stupid. Why? Because they fear being seen as weak. This means they care TOO much about how others view them and will only present themselves in images that display power and control. 

This is very easy to do. Its so easy its sad. You don't have to KNOW someone to do this. Why? Because there is no difference between one human and another, the only difference is expression. Expression of form, expression of psyche. Expression of form= Your human body and all the details associated with it. Expression of psyche= Your perspective which was forged through your early experiences.

The more you dive deep into observing your own behavior and why certain fears arise you will discover that those same issues you have ALL HUMANS HAVE to some degree.

Human beings are NOT simple. Thats a gross oversimplification.
The brain in vat, acting out calculated expressions of an emergent psyche is a well known but largely disproven hypothesis from oldschool behvaiourism-folks like B.F. Skinner. In fact, one of the main arguments in the last century of psychology-reserach was exactly what you are trying to say here: You can predict how people operate based on a very limiting set of drives/fears and similar factors. It failed spectecularly. Human beings, so it seems, are just way more complex than we thought - if not to say - combinatorially explosive. 

Now, I am not going to deny that there is a certain element of truth in that. There are definitely patterns which we can kind of intuit and it's directly correlated with the amount of self-knowledge we have gained up to this point. I understand the essence of your point but it's not nearly as reliable as you think it is. 

FBI negotiators are terrible at predicting human behaviour. This is a well established subject. Despite the popular appeal of body language or vocal queues, no study has uncovered any single behavior that accurately reflects whether a person is for example lying. Again, there is some truth to the negotiator who free's hostages throguh smart arguments - there is psychology which can influence odds, but it's again - just not very successful overall. 

The phrase “Know thyself” is not originally from Socrates. It is a quote inscribed on the frontispiece of the Temple of Delphi and has very little to do with how other individuals operate. First and firemost it's a process of understanding the self, development of the same and society for the overall benefit of the individual and others. If Socrates was here today, he would use some sort of socratian dialogue to sort out this situation - not some semi-deductive heuristic you are proposing. 

 

[Consept]

So in terms of the HU, from what i understand i wouldnt say its an out and out scam, it basically seems like a course on different ways you can make money, I would say there are much better courses for a lot less money but that doesnt make it a scam. What people are pointing to is the affiliate part of it where you get paid for promoting HU to others, again if we go with this just being a course its quite common that there would be affiliates, this is not unusual at all. Also I would say there are a lot worse 'marketing gurus' in the space, you just have to browse coffeezillas channel to find them, a lot of these are out and out scams, nft/crypto pump and dumps, claims that dropshipping is going to make you rich etc where the only people getting rich are the ones offering these promises. 

Tate getting banned i dont think has anything to do with HU by itself, if he wasnt the face of it, it wouldnt be banned point blank. The issue is more his views specifically on women. Now heres the thing, Tate has in my opinion exaggerated these views and presented them in a way where if you dont agree you will be offended, hes done this to create traction and controversy and to boost up his name and sell more courses. If we go with this being an exaggeration then hes effectively selling something thats not even real (his persona) to vulnerable young men who are aspiring to be him (if you look at sneako now thats a good example), so this in itself is a Hustle theres no way around that. Also if he is willing to reap the rewards of his persona he should accept that there will also be backlash as he himself is aiming to court this backlash. So i feel like he is trying to get it both ways. 

Also a wider point is that his rise shows the lack of strong masculine role models who do have integrity, if these existed i doubt he wouldve got anywhere close to the traction he has been getting. Im pretty sure most young men who have a father with integrity that they look up to, would not be taken by Tate. 

Having said all that I dont hate or even particularly dislike him but I think you could definitely make the argument that hes a net negative for society. There are plenty of good male youtubers who can motivate young men in more healthy ways, thats pretty much what people are commending Tate for. I think the very fact waving money and luxery in front of his followers faces completely lacks integrity and it is actually what you see with every get rich quick, mlm, pyramid scheme, all of them know that the people below them will never make that money but they dangle it to get money from them, it is pretty bad tbh. 

[Vido]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

So you're cool with me scamming you with the next course I release? Cause you're just a fucking loser if I trick you into buying it.

And if I exploit your daughter into becoming my sex slave, you're cool with that too, cause she's just a loser who deserved it?

The bias and lack of ethics and wisdom you guys display is disturbing. I should write down your names and release a scam course just for you, cause you're gonna be dumb enough to buy it.

XDDD

 

when is the course gonna come out, I'm waiting to get it (the real one)

Edited August 25, 2022 by Vido

[Tyler Robinson]

10 minutes ago, Consept said:

Also a wider point is that his rise shows the lack of strong masculine role models who do have integrity

What about Barack Obama or do we simply ignore good role models?