The Unattainable Enlightenment Conundrum

[VeganAwake]

Awakening is the end of the personalized experience of "I am here" "I am witnessing" "I am real" & "I need to know THIS".

What apparently happens is the "sense of being a someone" dissolves and then there's just BOOM, an explosion of light, color and sound, seemingly empty & simultaneously full, but for nobody!

Immediately empty of meaning and purpose & yet full of phenomenon.

Liberation isn't freedom for a "someone" to experiences or attain, it's just pure freedom realized as having always been the case.

And since it's already the case, there isn't a real need or a real "someone" in which could make what's already happening, happen.

It ends up being an indescribable non-happening or unbecoming!

Enlightenment isn't the end of the apparent physical phenomena, it's the end of the needy "individual" experiencing separation and lack.

It's the end of the "someone" which never actually existed!

It's the end of the "truth seeker" that so desperately wants to know How & Why.

It's even the end of the concept of infinity because there is nothing and no one for something to be infinite for!

The cosmic joke of so-called enlightenment is that when it seems to occur, nothing actually did!

It's just what seems to be happening THIS.

 

❤ 

 

 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

You exist. Here you are.

[Holykael]

The no self ideology must be the greatest cosmic joke god created. Coping with eternity must be hard that you have to pretend like you don't even exist

[VeganAwake]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You exist. Here you are.

Well sure brother, in that sense yes there IS a physical conditioned body here with apparent characteristics, a social security number and a birth certificate.

But this "sense of self" within the body that claims "I am this or I am that" is an illusion of identity.

This is of course why when the body ingest psychedelics and such, that sense of self construct or self boundary can become blurred or dissolve altogether during parts of the trip.... that happens because the self-construct is not actually real. 

It's like an enormous web of memories and conditioned beliefs which seem to make up this character called Travis or Leo.

And this revelation doesn't have to always feel like some intense shocking mystical paradigm shift.... it can actually just become obvious and seem quite ordinary.

It can also feel like "huh well that's interesting & strange"

Although ordinary and simultaneously extraordinary seem to describe it well! 

❤ 

 

 

 

 

[VeganAwake]

8 hours ago, Holykael said:

The no self ideology must be the greatest cosmic joke god created. Coping with eternity must be hard that you have to pretend like you don't even exist

Gotcha, "the old gods playing a joke on itself" belief.

Those are actually all just concepts that only seem to occur within the dream story of "I am".

There is no one here thats coping and no one there describing it. There just seems to be, which is the illusion of self-identity being pointed out!

❤ 

 

 

 

[Razard86]

.........

You don't understand what the no self means. The no self means that you are not just one identity, you are an infinite number of identities. Nothingness means that everything isn't made of anything. Its just imagination. What is imagination made up of? Nothing. So everything is nothing and any rules is self imposed by imagination. 

When you guys on the forums pretend the ego doesn't exist, you are confused. The ego not existing is a tool to get to the true identity of I am. Not I am a human, or I am smart. No I am Infinity, I am ONE, I am everything, I am Nothing, or if you want...silence as all labels are just pointers. 

The reason Leo says you exist....is because you guys really don't get it. Existence and non existence are the same. 

Go into a deep sleep with no dream. Without a dream, God/reality does not exist. Without a dream there is no reality. But even then God still exists, because God can DREAM itself into existence. That is how God came to be, it dreamed/imagined itself into existence.

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Well sure brother, in that sense yes there IS a physical conditioned body here with apparent characteristics, a social security number and a birth certificate.

No, that's not what I meant. I was not talking about your body or your finite human avatar.

I was talking about YOU, God.

Here you are.

[VeganAwake]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No, that's not what I meant. I was not talking about your body or your finite human avatar.

I was talking about YOU, God.

Here you are.

Ah gotcha,

That must be a wild experience bro!

Here for a while when "I" was stationed with the Navy in Okinawa, the sense of self was seemingly dissolving & it felt like this condensed energy stored in the body was released back into everything. It genuinely felt like "I" had become everything or infinite energy of sorts.

That experience eventually ended and there just wasn't anyone or anything left experiencing or even seeking for that matter.....even stranger, it was realized there actually never was an experiencer to begin with. 

"I" was actually watching a lot of your older 2015-2019 videos and doing the numerous self inquiry practices during lunch break and after work. Must have watched at least 35 of your vids on that deployment....and of course the SD and Collective Ego videos were money bro!

Thank you for taking the time to make them. It's been a wild ride ever since!

❤ 

 

 

 

 

 

[VeganAwake]

4 hours ago, Razard86 said:

.........

You don't understand what the no self means. The no self means that you are not just one identity, you are an infinite number of identities. Nothingness means that everything isn't made of anything. Its just imagination. What is imagination made up of? Nothing. So everything is nothing and any rules is self imposed by imagination. 

When you guys on the forums pretend the ego doesn't exist, you are confused. The ego not existing is a tool to get to the true identity of I am. Not I am a human, or I am smart. No I am Infinity, I am ONE, I am everything, I am Nothing, or if you want...silence as all labels are just pointers. 

The reason Leo says you exist....is because you guys really don't get it. Existence and non existence are the same. 

Go into a deep sleep with no dream. Without a dream, God/reality does not exist. Without a dream there is no reality. But even then God still exists, because God can DREAM itself into existence. That is how God came to be, it dreamed/imagined itself into existence.

Well then that's what's being experienced there bro....it whole complete and perfect ? 

[Raptorsin7]

I'm buying stock in VeganAwake. I used to think he was completely deluded, but the more I see him the more I think he's a good guy.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, VeganAwake said:

it was realized there actually never was an experiencer to begin with.

Experience and experiencer are one.

You are Infinity.

[Someone here]

6 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

"I" was actually watching a lot of your older 2015-2019 videos and doing the numerous self inquiry practices during lunch break 

Leo no longer teaches no self  

He teaches "God-Realization "  aka solipsism. 

[Vibroverse]

Maybe nonexistence and existence as God mean the same thing to VeganAwake, and if so, I would agree with him, in a sense. I'm thinking of the quote from Rumi where he said "the language of God is silence, and everything else is just a poor translation". And yeah, by writing this comment, I'm joining the team of poor translation by being one of the poor translators, I guess, hmm. 

[VeganAwake]

Here is a little comical 

 

Sense of self: This experience of reality is totally wild and crazy, there must be a very meaningful and fulfilling explanation for why everything is the way it is and if I can just figure it out, it will be very beneficial in my life.

Reality: Interesting concepts, anyways here's what's going to happen... bada bing bada boom!

Sense of self: If I just read enough spiritual content and do these numerous spiritual practices each day with total consistency and concentration, I bet eventually I will become an all knowing, all powerful selfless eternal entity, and all of my life problems will dissolve under the weight of Truth.

Reality: What's Knowing & Truth? Sounds like man-made conditioned concepts, anyways here's what's going to happen.... bada bing bada boom!

Sense of self: I am the creator and I ultimately control reality. Whatever happens is because I willed it into existence. True story!

Reality: Well then why didn't you will yourself an umbrella the other day when it was pouring cats and dogs huh? Anyways here's what's going to happen.... bada bing bada boom!

 

Notice how any belief or concept held about how reality functions or who is doing the functioning, makes absolutely no difference to reality. Reality doesn't need any concepts or belief systems to function, reality hasn't a care in the world about any belief systems or functionality theories that are given to it.... it just continues doing what it does regardless of the theories about how or why.

And in fact, any change in the experience of reality due to a paradigm shift or awakening or whatnot, would simply be an internal experience and would have nothing to do with external reality and it's apparent functionality. 

In other words, internal beliefs do not effect external reality..... & any apparent effect or change would simply be in the mind of the beholder.... meaning ultimately it's unreal!!

❤ 

 

[axiom]

 

1 hour ago, VeganAwake said:

Any change in the experience of reality due to a paradigm shift or awakening or whatnot, would simply be an internal experience and would have nothing to do with external reality and it's apparent functionality. 

This, too, is a belief about the appearance. The appearance is still the appearance whether or not psychedelics or ideas of internal & external reality seem to be involved.

Let's bridge this gap.

The appearance as it seems to be induced by high doses of certain psychedelics seems to be VERY energetically rich. It seems to feel inexplicably true. Inexplicably profound. For noone. Or it might be said, for the appearance.

No ontological claims about the appearance can be made, since there is noone there to concoct them.

And yet, when the self falls away, omniscience (for noone) can still seem to be an energetic feature of the appearance. The appearance can seem to manifest such that the "knowledge" of "infinity" or "God" is not separate from it, but part of it.

Edited August 25, 2022 by axiom

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, axiom said:

This, too, is a belief about the appearance. The appearance is still the appearance whether or not psychedelics or ideas of internal & external reality seem to be involved.

Yeah that's what I'm saying...

An internal perspective/experience of reality has nothing to do with actual raw reality & simultaneously it's also raw reality in the sense that any perspective or experience is exactly what seems to be happening. 

What happens is the conditioned experience of being a separate individual living in a world of meaning purpose and value creates a dream-like story or dream experience often referred to as the Matrix.

In actual raw reality nothing is even happening, but within the dream story/experience, it seems like all kinds of meaningful important things are taking place continuously and with purpose.

It could be said that enlightenment is the end of personalized perspective and experience.

It could also be said that enlightenment is freedom from perspective altogether but for noone!

The physical appearance does not change in any way at all.... the appearance of a tree is still the appearance of a tree the appearance of a dog is still the appearance of a dog and so on...

❤ 

[SOUL]

Well, 'enlightenment' isn't attained, it is realized, so if you recognize that it isn't a conundrum.

[VictorB02]

The no-self style of teaching is becoming increasingly more ridiculous to me. Not because I don't understand it, I do. I understand what it's trying to point out, but I find time and time again people excusing extremely egotistical behavior as "okay" because "this" just "is" and "there is no me", which is an obvious and naive mis-interpretation of what that teaching really means.

The most mind blowing thing I've awoken to and that my experience confirms over and over and over and over again is ... it's Me.

It's always been just Me.

Self.

That's it.

And the more clearly I see Self in Everything, the easier it is to understand the finite self (which is also Me) but to which I am not limited.

[Consilience]

On 8/24/2022 at 8:41 AM, VeganAwake said:

Well sure brother, in that sense yes there IS a physical conditioned body here with apparent characteristics, a social security number and a birth certificate.

There actually isn’t even a physical body. 

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, axiom said:

No ontological claims about the appearance can be made

Yes it can, and it must!

All appearance must be recognized as Absolute Truth. It does not get any more ontological than that.

There is no awakening until appearance is recognized as Absolute Truth.