The Unattainable Enlightenment Conundrum

[Consilience]

13 minutes ago, amanen said:

Experience is consciousness, consciousness is absolute truth, so anything you experience is absolute truth. There is no paradox.

You’re missing the point/not addressing what my post is pointing towards. Nothing you wrote contradicts the observation here.
 

The very moment experience comes into being is the very moment that qualia of experience passes away. Therefore, how can experience be said to exist when the very moment experience comes into being it passes away? When we say appearance is absolute reality, that demands we understand what appearances actually are. Not our ideas of appearance, the ACTUAL nature of appearance. 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Consilience

[amanen]

3 minutes ago, Consilience said:

You’re missing the point/not addressing what my post is pointing towards. Nothing you wrote contradicts the observation here.
 

The very moment experience comes into being is the very moment that qualia of experience passes away. Therefore, how can experience be said to exist when the very moment experience comes into being it passes away? When we say appearance is absolute reality, that demands we understand what appearances actually are. Not our ideas of appearance, the ACTUAL nature of appearance. 

 

The specifics of experience change, but not the fact that everything that happens is always experience. Experience itself does not pass away, only the specific experiences inside the experience. It is still the same experience.

[axiom]

@amanen

Everything and Nothing.

God Consciousness and (Neo) Advaita.

[Inliytened1]

You can't capture it bexause you ARE it.   You are Being it.  There is only Being or existence itself. Which is You.  You are Absolute Truth.   Perception of some experience is an illusion or a created separation between subject/object.

[Consilience]

24 minutes ago, amanen said:

The specifics of experience change, but not the fact that everything that happens is always experience. Experience itself does not pass away, only the specific experiences inside the experience. It is still the same experience.

But it is not the same appearance, therefore what does one actually mean when one says appearance is the absolute? What appearance, precisely?

[VictorB02]

11 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Totally, I once saw my true self in this beautiful little donkey named froto but it ultimately was just my spiritual ego being a jackass!  

❤ 

Haha. Of course you're the jackass named Froto, and every other jackass in existence. How could you not be? You're joking yet still somehow you think there is actually a difference between you and Froto the Jackass? Nope. Somehow you think that there is a difference between this "nothingness" you identify as and Froto the Jackass. Nope. It's You. Not someone or something else. You. Not "nothingness", not "isness".

You. You, @VeganAwake are the Jackass. 

[axiom]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

You can't capture it bexause you ARE it.   You are Being it.  There is only Being or existence itself. Which is You.  You are Absolute Truth.   Perception of some experience is an illusion or a created separation between subject/object.

Advaita suggests that if you are it, then there can be no you, and there can be no it. Both collapse.

Subject and object can only exist in duality. They ultimately cancel each other out because they depend on each other to exist at all.

This seems obvious if you watch your thoughts arising.

Advaita suggests that the observer is no more than a thought form. There is much disagreement about that here… mostly it comes down to semantics again.

Edited August 26, 2022 by axiom

[bambi]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't do this Buddhist game of spiritual BS.

All appearance is Absolute Truth. Period. It couldn't be any more obvious.

If you're seeing it, it exists. Seeing is existence.

Impermanence does not diminish the truth of a thing in any way whatsoever. Buddhists have filled your mind with some bad ideas that it would behoove you to deconstruct.

Buddhists did no such thing lol, he just didn't understand Buddhism [like you]

Did you decide what the end goal with all this work is yet? Correct me if I''m wrong but it seems to be:

1) realize right now this moment is God's creation

2) this moment right now is everything that exists

3) everything in this moment right now is you

4) you are this moment, this moment is you

-------------

 

5) take pyschedlics and you can experience the infinitude of everything within this moment

6) you can understand absoluitely everything in this moment, what its nature is, precisely and utterly all of the ifnite conditions that created this thing

7) apply  6) to everything and you become concious of the interconnected conditionality of everything in existence

 

did all this, and then what?  and you still refuse to engage in discourse without equivociation or posturing

 

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, axiom said:

Advaita suggests that if you are it, then there can be no you, and there can be no it. Both collapse.

Subject and object can only exist in duality. They ultimately cancel each other out.

This is where language fails and you can only use second order (language) to describe first order and this will always not be IT it will be a  second order finite description.  But that's OK.   Going back to descriptions - when I say you I don't mean the small self you I mean God/Truth/Being/Infinity. 

 

[axiom]

3 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

This is where language fails and you can only use second order (language) to describe first order and this will always not be IT it will be a  second order finite description.  But that's OK.   Going back to descriptions - when I say you I don't mean the small self you I mean God/Truth/Being/Infinity. 

 

Yes, many people here agree with each other without realising it.

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, axiom said:

Yes, many people here agree with each other without realising it.

Agreed it just shows you how limited language is. 

 

[VeganAwake]

23 minutes ago, Consilience said:

But it is not the same appearance, therefore what does one actually mean when one says appearance is the absolute? What appearance, precisely?

The appearance of constant appearance change.... of course any real change is simply a matter of perspective.

Is Boundless Energy seemingly changing, actually a real change?

Depends on the perspective.

❤ 

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, Consilience said:

You can project and strawman all you want man. It’s not my problem if you don’t believe me. Impermanence is one of the lowest hanging fruit too, but also easily underestimated in its significance. 
 

Was simply curious how you reconcile this paradox of appereance. Turns out you haven’t really seen into the full nature of appearance because if you had, you’d understand where my inquiry was coming from rather than going internet forum aggro mode and claiming Im parroting spiritual bs. Which tbh, it’s really strange how defensive you got. The tone of our posts and responses speak for themselves. 

good luck dude 

Keep playing your games. You're not fooling me.

I told you right off the bat what you were doing because I knew it would come to this with you. Nothing personal. I just know your position on such matters.

I expect you to get this stuff. This is pretty fundamental for you. You are not conscious of what Truth is. Simple as that.

No aggro mode, I just wanted to cut through all the back-and-forth BS that I knew would come.

As far as my tone, yes, I could have been sweeter. But it wouldn't change the substance of the matter.

[Jake Chambers]

42 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Keep playing your games. You're not fooling me.

I told you right off the bat what you were doing because I knew it would come to this with you. Nothing personal. I just know your position on such matters.

I expect you to get this stuff. This is pretty fundamental for you. You are not conscious of what Truth is. Simple as that.

No aggro mode, I just wanted to cut through all the back-and-forth BS that I knew would come.

 

 

[VeganAwake]

 

[Jake Chambers]

Why can Leo edit his post without it being marked on the post like the rest of us?

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, Jake Chambers said:

Why can Leo edit his post without it being marked on the post like the rest of us?

Mods have this ability.

[ardacigin]

On 26.08.2022 at 5:18 PM, Consilience said:

You’re missing the point/not addressing what my post is pointing towards. Nothing you wrote contradicts the observation here.
 

The very moment experience comes into being is the very moment that qualia of experience passes away. Therefore, how can experience be said to exist when the very moment experience comes into being it passes away? When we say appearance is absolute reality, that demands we understand what appearances actually are. Not our ideas of appearance, the ACTUAL nature of appearance. 

@Leo GuraEthan is actually telling everyone a very foundational and basic insight of spirituality. Its not some Buddhist exclusive teaching.

First of all, many people here are in this illusion that the objects, feelings, thoughts and perceptual 3D environment EXISTS independent of mind and IS absolute truth. There is also this 'You are HERE. Look around you. THIS is it!'.

First of all, there is no 'you' that is God or 'here'. In true God consciousness, there is zero location or person or any whiff of duality. Horrible way of actually describing this insight. No-self insinuates non-duality unlike 'You are GOD!'.

If there is actually a tiny bit of 'you' duality in there (doesnt matter how subtle in formless realms), the insight is not even true. If you are 'everything' then it is the same experience as 'no self'. There is no in between. If you think these are 2 separate insights (etc one is deeper than the other), then I suggest contemplating that because it will be shown to you to be false.

The insight into impermanence is the realization that there is only flux.  Arising and passing away dissolves into meaningless and you are left with the creation moment of conscious experience. Solidity is merely function of how mind operates and exists. Never have been anything that resembles even a slight bit of solidity. All solidity you experience EVER is a construct of your mind. It is the engine of this illusion you generate. Which basically dovetails with emptiness. 

I wouldnt call it the easiest insight to experience. But many people here not only not understand how crucial impermanence is. But also conflict the constructs of their minds with 'truth'.

People would be shocked out of their minds if they truly understood 100s of 5 meo dmt sessions they did were constructs of their minds just as much as their 'sober' life and their current attachment to those 'temporary glimpses' are what is getting in the way of their spiritual development RIGHT NOW. Using these beautiful psychedelic substances in all the wrong ways.

You gotta use these substances very judiciously. Realize how profound impermanence is. Basically telling you your modus operandi of perceiving life is FALSE and is a construction. Which also connects and forms a whole picture with no self, emptiness, interconnectedness of all phenomena, suffering-craving.

I'm a non dualist. Suffering in any way means you are CURRENTLY in duality. It means there is self. And there is craving. Doesnt matter if you had this profound experience of GOD yesterday night using this or that substance. Use that experience you have to guide your current highly deluded state of consciousness and bring the truth to conscious experience RIGHT NOW.

Unfortunately, this process just doesnt compute without industry strength level of meditation. If you wanna live the rest of your life with temporary glimpses and spend the rest of 99% of your day in falsehood and abject suffering, then just do psycedelics. But you can actually use psychedelics WITH meditation to permanently awaken and break this bondage and suffering of 'I need 5 meo dmt right now to re-connect with truth or explore consciousness'. 

Hope you realize that is a form of VERY crude craving and suffering. Become conscious of that. This state of delusion is the reason why someone is on the spiritual  path for 20 years and has nothing to show for it. Not because they do meditation or psychedelics.

These are all tools you use to explore truth, realize these fundamental insights and see through the illusions of life and death. Dont play favourites. It is pointless. Just do the work and awaken deeper and deeper.

If while looking at this monitor or screen, you are not DEEPLY and EFFORTLESSLY conscious that there is no self (which is the 1st stage of awakening 'stream entry'), you are not even 1% conscious of what is ultimately possible.

Much love,

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by ardacigin