The Unattainable Enlightenment Conundrum

[Consilience]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes it can, and it must!

All appearance must be recognized as Absolute Truth. It does not get any more ontological than that.

There is no awakening until appearance is recognized as Absolute Truth.

If all appearances pass away at the moment of their appearing (absolute impermanence), how can appearances be said to exist? 

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Consilience said:

If all appearances pass away at the moment of their appearing (absolute impermanence), how can appearances be said to exist? 

Don't do this Buddhist game of spiritual BS.

All appearance is Absolute Truth. Period. It couldn't be any more obvious.

If you're seeing it, it exists. Seeing is existence.

Impermanence does not diminish the truth of a thing in any way whatsoever. Buddhists have filled your mind with some bad ideas that it would behoove you to deconstruct.

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, SOUL said:

Well, 'enlightenment' isn't attained, it is realized, so if you recognize that it isn't a conundrum.

Right, the conundrum part would be the misunderstanding that there is a real self which could attain something called enlightenment, yet never clearly understanding that it's just not a real something to attain or become in the first place!

❤ 

 

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, VictorB02 said:

And the more clearly I see Self in Everything, the easier it is to understand the finite self (which is also Me) but to which I am not limited.

Totally, I once saw my true self in this beautiful little donkey named froto but it ultimately was just my spiritual ego being a jackass!  

❤ 

[Consilience]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't do this Buddhist game of spiritual BS.

Sheesh you got really defensive man. I wasn’t trying to argue or even insinuate  disagreement, I was asking a question based on direct experience. 

Quote

All appearance is Absolute Truth. Period. It couldn't be any more obvious.

If you're seeing it, it exists. Seeing is existence.

I understand that. This is as obvious as your post implies. Suchness is the Absolute. I don’t disagree. But what happens when one’s mind becomes so clear, the ignorance needed for the appearance of solidity to appear is no longer present? What is the nature of all appearance when appearance is ceasing to construct itself because time, space, solidity, and separation are all seen through? In simple terms, one can literally and directly observe: “If all appearances pass away at the moment of their appearing (absolute impermanence), how can appearances be said to exist?”

Im not playing spiritual or Buddhist games. This is a legitimate metaphysical and ontological inquiry for the serious truth seeker. 

Quote

Impermanence does not diminish the truth of a thing in any way whatsoever.

If the mind is so concentrated on God “a thing” can no longer come into being, what does this say about the nature of appearance? 
 

And Im not making any claims here or insinuating anything other than a curiosity on how you hold this deep observation. 

Quote

Buddhists have filled your mind with some bad ideas that it would behoove you to deconstruct.

None of this inquiry comes from Buddhism other than impermanence, which isn’t even strictly buddhist! All spiritual schools have their flavors and comments on impermanence. Impermanence is one of the most foundational, metaphysical observations one can make about the nature of reality. Don’t let your biased against Buddhism bias you from taking seriously the actuality of impermanence.

 

 

Edit: The clarity that emerges when once actually sees into the depth, significance, and ironically, permanence of impermanence regarding time, space, and all appearances is that it has always been this way. Any sense of solid reality could only have been an illusion. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Consilience

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Consilience said:

In simple terms, one can literally and directly observe: “If all appearances pass away at the moment of their appearing (absolute impermanence), how can appearances be said to exist?”

Im not playing spiritual or Buddhist games. This is a legitimate metaphysical and ontological inquiry for the serious truth seeker. 

If the mind is so concentrated on God “a thing” can no longer come into being, what does this say about the nature of appearance?

You're making this way too complicated.

Either you have experience, or you don't. If you don't, you're not a human and you aren't not here talking to me. So you do have experience. And if you do, then whatever you're experiencing is Absolute Truth, otherwise you could not experience it.

Quote

None of this inquiry comes from Buddhism other than impermanence, which isn’t even strictly buddhist! All spiritual schools have their flavors and comments on impermanence. Impermanence is one of the most foundational, metaphysical observations one can make about the nature of reality. Don’t let your biased against Buddhism bias you from taking seriously the actuality of impermanence.

You got these ideas of impermanence somewhere. You certainly didn't get it from direct experience. You got it from some human source. Time to throw it away and go with your direct experience.

Yes, all forms are impermanent. But the problem is that you're ascribing Truth to permanence, which is incorrect.

[VeganAwake]

54 minutes ago, Consilience said:

There actually isn’t even a physical body. 

It obviously depends on the interpretation of what real is.

It's as real as it seems currently possible. 

I mean if that body runs full speed into a brick wall, I assure you that it's going to know it.

But if you mean that it ultimately lacks in reality because it's not something infinite or eternal then yep its completely unreal in that regard!

❤ 

[Consilience]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Either you have experience, or you don't. If you don't, you're not a human and you aren't not here talking to me. So you do have experience. And if you do, then whatever you're experiencing is Absolute Truth, otherwise you could not experience it.

I agree. The natural next question is what is experience?

 

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You got these ideas of impermanence somewhere. You certainly didn't get it from direct experience. You got it from some human source. Time to throw it away and go with your direct experience.

 

The reason this has arisen is because of direct experience. It seems we’re speaking from two different resolutions of viewing reality. 

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, all forms are impermanent. But the problem is that you're ascribing Truth to permanence, which is incorrect.

Truth is unchanging, this is correct. Both permanence and impermanence are unchanging, by definition. The duality between the two collapses. 
 

Anyways, thank you for the responses. 
 

21 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

It obviously depends on the interpretation of what real is.

It's as real as it seems currently possible. 

I mean if that body runs full speed into a brick wall, I assure you that it's going to know it.

But if you mean that it ultimately lacks in reality because it's not something infinite or eternal then yep its completely unreal in that regard!

❤ 

The second but not just in its lack of infinitude, but additionally in its lack of minutia. There is no such thing as a body when one experiences the body directly, precisely because of what I was speaking about regarding the impermanence above. 
 

Tbh I was just trying to make your claims even more of a mind fuck. ?

[VeganAwake]

Tony Parsons has been sharing this communication for like 20+ years and Jim Newman for at least 11 or so.

What seems to happen is infinite energy being infinite, also becomes constricted within the body and gives rise to the experience of separation or duality and not only within the body, but within everything(I am here and everything and everyone else is out there).

And then with some help of societal conditioning, it overlays reality with those endless conditioned concepts such as: truth; meaning; purpose; value. (I am real and this experience is important & needs to be understood)....and the endless seeking begins!

Enlightenment throws out the baby with the bathwater. It not only reveals that this desperate seeker is completely illusory, it also reveals that all of its cultural belief baggage is total BS. 

The habitual patterns of self identification start dissolving now that the constricted energy within the body is no longer being endlessly fed. The sense of self dies when this constricted energy relaxes back into everything.

The energetic burden of upholding this needy self construct simply ends and is simultaneously realized to have never been real in the first place.

Basically it's the end of identification and the body being drug around by energy & or conditioning!

❤ 

Edited August 26, 2022 by VeganAwake

[BuddhistLover]

@Leo Gura You're going around using your knowledge of human psychology to correct people's lives, on almost cruise control. It's almost like you're world's above society. Why not be the one to go all the way? You're the only who has made it this far.  And I know you got the idea to work harder from Josh Criswell and Conan Gray. From tapping my cell phone. Believe me, I know. I know. New lyric video(piece of work) comes out tomorrow. We're not human. We are the same being that has been talking to itself forever. FEEL PROUD OF YOURSELF LEO GURA. (period)

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Consilience said:

I agree. The natural next question is what is experience?

 

The reason this has arisen is because of direct experience. It seems we’re speaking from two different resolutions of viewing reality. 

Truth is unchanging, this is correct.

Dude, don't BS me. You are not aware of what truth is.

You are parroting spiritual dogma.

Experience is Truth.

[Razard86]

6 hours ago, Consilience said:

I agree. The natural next question is what is experience?

 

 

I would say Oneness, you are always one with your experience. Basically Experience is God or what you call reality. Experience is also Self, an infinity of selves the infinite ego.

I really don't understand the demonization of ego on the forums. The ego is a barrier to God because of attachment but once you are aware of the ego and able to detach then you no longer need to view it as some impediment. Your psyche is your ego, your speech is your ego, your walking gait, the amount of times you blink, your clothes, your smell, your likes/dislikes this is all ego. 

Do people not realize the absurdity to demonize the ego? They think oh I am meditating so I am separating from the ego....lol. The ego IS REALITY. They say, quiet the ego is an illusion....lol. So is reality an illusion. They say the ego is a creation....so is reality. The problem isn't the ego, the problem is you think you are one ego, instead of infinite egos. That was the purpose of Leo's video about Free Will. It was to reveal to you if you identify with Infinity, then you have free will. 

So what does this mean? If you are demonizing your ego after you claim to have awakened....then you are not awake. I'm not saying you tolerate your ego's out of balance shenanigans, I'm saying don't judge it like its some separate devil that you do not claim.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Razard86

[Kshantivadin]

@VeganAwake do you still believe there is something external - or is it just semantics?

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Kshantivadin said:

@VeganAwake do you still believe there is something external - or is it just semantics?

Yeah the word external was just used for communication purposes to describe the illusory experience of "I am here & everything else is out there".... if that's what you mean?

Semantically a temporary appearance seems to be both real and unreal..... there's no denying that appearances seem to take place.

Although when you get down to the brass tacks, I would have to conclude that a temporary appearance is ultimately unreal!

❤ 

 

 

[undeather]

[LfcCharlie4]

@undeather  That could be the best meme ever 

Your quote fits it perfectly too 

[Consilience]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Dude, don't BS me. You are not aware of what truth is.

You are parroting spiritual dogma.

Experience is Truth.

You can project and strawman all you want man. It’s not my problem if you don’t believe me. Impermanence is one of the lowest hanging fruit too, but also easily underestimated in its significance. 
 

Was simply curious how you reconcile this paradox of appereance. Turns out you haven’t really seen into the full nature of appearance because if you had, you’d understand where my inquiry was coming from rather than going internet forum aggro mode and claiming Im parroting spiritual bs. Which tbh, it’s really strange how defensive you got. The tone of our posts and responses speak for themselves. 

good luck dude 

[VeganAwake]

The experience of being a separate individual will always turn everything into a form of materialism. It turns everything into just another attempt to get what it feels is missing or lacking.

The sense of self will always dismiss any claim or communication that doesn't sound like it's going to deliver some form of satisfaction for itself.

It's spiritual materialism!

So of course any communication claiming that this needy sense of self doesn't even exist is immediately like Kryptonite to it.

Anything that directly slices through the illusion of self is immediately dismissed as BS by nothing other than the illusion of self of course... what a funny predicament wouldn't you say?

❤ 

 

 

 

[amanen]

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

You can project and strawman all you want man. It’s not my problem if you don’t believe me. Impermanence is one of the lowest hanging fruit too, but also easily underestimated in its significance. 
 

Was simply curious how you reconcile this paradox of appereance. Turns out you haven’t really seen into the full nature of appearance because if you had, you’d understand where my inquiry was coming from rather than going internet forum aggro mode and claiming Im parroting spiritual bs. Which tbh, it’s really strange how defensive you got. The tone of our posts and responses speak for themselves. 

good luck dude 

Experience is consciousness, consciousness is absolute truth, so anything you experience is absolute truth. There is no paradox.

[axiom]

God realisation and Advaita ultimately point to the same thing. Two sides of the same coin. There are just different levels of egoic attachments to words like nothingness, God, "you", etc. 

Nothingness can also be conceived as "you" (the big you, AKA God, AKA Reality, AKA infinity, AKA everything).

The word "you" does imply other however, and that's ultimately why Advaita doesn't like it, i.e. if everything is "you" then the differentiation "you" is in fact meaningless.

99% of the stuff people argue about on this forum is semantics. 

Remember that Gaurisankar and Mount Everest are the same mountain seen from different valleys. Or so the saying goes... (turns out it's not true actually, but that's beside the point )

Edited August 26, 2022 by axiom