Daniel Schmachtenberger, the third attractor part 2

[zurew]

16 minutes ago, Devin said:

I don't think so, a lot of fun stuff where you end up dead. 

amusement or enjoyment 

Okay, so whats relevant here is avoidable death. 

This question will decide if you really value fun over survival:

Lets say activity X gives you the most enjoyment so because you are biased towards fun, you are doing that activity. However, there is a twist, because you know that if you do that activity you will end up being dead. 

So the question is this:

Would you choose to do that activity, even if you would know beforehand, that if you do it you will end up being dead?

 

Also notice this: being biased towards fun still contains the bias of wanting a certain outcome. Why? Becuase, you will end up doing things that will give you the most enjoyment (which is still a certain outcome). If we want to look at it from a different perspective, you will try to avoid anything that gives you little or no enjoyment at all.

Edited August 26, 2022 by zurew

[Devin]

9 minutes ago, zurew said:

Okay, so whats relevant here is avoidable death. 

This question will decide if you really value fun over survival:

Lets say activity X gives you the most enjoyment so because you are biased towards fun, you are doing that activity. However, there is a twist, because you know that if you do that activity you will end up being dead. 

So the question is this:

Would you choose to do that activity, even if you would know beforehand, that if you do it you will end up being dead?

I personally still tend to have fear, but ideally; yes of course

See; Jesus

Edited August 26, 2022 by Devin

[zurew]

7 minutes ago, Devin said:

See; Jesus

Jesus wasn't biased towards fun. Jesus was biased towards Love.

[Devin]

5 minutes ago, zurew said:

Jesus wasn't biased towards fun. Jesus was biased towards Love.

Enjoyment

The way you're describing his love is fear based

[zurew]

@Devin Whats your thoughts on this?

31 minutes ago, zurew said:

Also notice this: being biased towards fun still contains the bias of wanting a certain outcome. Why? Becuase, you will end up doing things that will give you the most enjoyment (which is still a certain outcome). If we want to look at it from a different perspective, you will try to avoid anything that gives you little or no enjoyment at all.

[Devin]

10 minutes ago, zurew said:

@Devin Whats your thoughts on this?

"Also notice this: being biased towards fun still contains the bias of wanting a certain outcome. Why? Becuase, you will end up doing things that will give you the most enjoyment (which is still a certain outcome). If we want to look at it from a different perspective, you will try to avoid anything that gives you little or no enjoyment at all."

So, things happening or coming to fruition don't GIVE us enjoyment. Enjoyment is a state of mind, accepting everything and just appreciating everything, that doesn't mean not doing anything though, that's the play/fun part.

 

When you were a small child playing did you contemplate which activity was more fun? Even if not in words. How fun an activity was?

Edited August 26, 2022 by Devin

[zurew]

10 minutes ago, Devin said:

that doesn't mean not doing anything though, that's the play/fun part.

Okay so the "fun" part isn't relevant to this discussion because it doesn't have any weight on what activtiy you will end up doing according to you.

So the question is this: How do you decide what you want to do? Is it random, or something impacts your decision making?

10 minutes ago, Devin said:

When you were a small child playing did you contemplate which activity was more fun? Even if not in words. How fun an activity was?

I didn't consciously contemplate it, but i ended up doing things that were fun to do. Whether I did that consciously or unconsciously doesn't really matter, because i was still somewhat biased towards fun, although i would definitely say, that my bias towards survival is greater/upper on the hierarchy spectrum.

Edited August 26, 2022 by zurew

[Devin]

10 minutes ago, zurew said:

Okay so the "fun" part isn't relevant to this discussion because it doesn't have any weight on what activtiy you will end up doing according to you.

So the question is this: How do you decide what you want to do? Is it random, or something impacts your decision making?

I appreciate your resolve, I feel like you'll flesh out a problem I have and most people aren't willing to go the distance, thanks.

Yes things impact my decision making, at the root though is what you might call intuition and I don't know what drives that. No matter how intelligent you are, how rational, you don't know what really drives you, at your core you're still with child like wonder and play, you're just adulterated by the "ignorance of the world". I think ?, or I should say "I feel".

Edited August 26, 2022 by Devin

[zurew]

22 minutes ago, Devin said:

No matter how intelligent you are, how rationale, you don't know what really drives you, at your core you're still with child like wonder and play, you're just adulterated by the "ignorance of the world". I think ?, or I should say I feel.

I see it this way: we have some level of free will/agency, but we lose that agency if our survival is greatly threatened. The time when we can start talking about decision-making is the time when we have already taken care of our survival. After taking care of the basic survival part, we can start talking about morality, and we can start to build and analyze our decision making process/processes. So generally speaking every bias is built upon the bias of survival.

22 minutes ago, Devin said:

Yes things impact my decision making, at the root though is what you might call intuition and I don't know what drives that.

Even if we say that your intuition is whats in complete charge when it comes to your decision making, you could still analyze what decisions you made in the past. Based on your past actions and based on very serious self reflection, you can figure out what core biases you have.

Edited August 26, 2022 by zurew

[Devin]

25 minutes ago, zurew said:

I see it this way: we have some level of free will/agency, but we lose that agency if our survival is greatly threatened. The time when we can start talking about decision-making is the time when we have already taken care of our survival. After taking care of the basic survival part, we can start talking about morality, and we can start to build and analyze our decision making process/processes. So generally speaking every bias is built upon the bias of survival.

Even if we say that your intuition is whats in complete charge when it comes to your decision making, you could still analyze what decisions you made in the past. Based on your past actions and based on very serious self reflection, you can figure out what core biases you have.

I agree with all of that

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

There is no reason to be biased toward desireless nihilism as opposed to desiring the purpose, in this case frameable in negative terms as avoiding collapse of civilization or in positive ones as moving toward a more ideal-based light.

10/10 Slay

[Devin]

2 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Jesus was crucified for a specific purpose.

There is no reason to be biased toward desireless nihilism as opposed to desiring the purpose, in this case frameable in negative terms as avoiding collapse of civilization or in positive ones as moving toward a more ideal-based light.

I'm not a nihilist, I think the purpose is enjoyment

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, Devin said:

I'm not a nihilist, I think the purpose is enjoyment

Based on the info you gave so far, it seems that your main value/purpose isn't really fun/enjoyment, but the state of mind that can provide you with the feeling of fun/joy.

Quote

So, things happening or coming to fruition don't GIVE us enjoyment. Enjoyment is a state of mind

So coming back to the "decision making" point, whatever can help you with optimizing your mind towards experiencing more joy/fun will point towards your main bias(es).

 

[Devin]

12 minutes ago, zurew said:

Based on the info you gave so far, it seems that your main value/purpose isn't really fun/enjoyment, but the state of mind that can provide you with the feeling of fun/joy.

So coming back to the "decision making" point, whatever can help you with optimizing your mind towards experiencing more joy/fun will point towards your main bias(es).

 

No, it's a choice, choose to enjoy, you don't need help from anything. At its core anyway. You could say it's your bias to rid yourself of what keeps you from doing that, I suppose, but that means you're living in fear not enjoyment. But I don't see what you're trying to get at with bias.

There's not more or less joy/fun, there's just joy/fun

Edited August 26, 2022 by Devin

[zurew]

6 minutes ago, Devin said:

No, it's a choice, choose to enjoy, you don't need help from anything. At its core anyway. You could say it's your bias to rid yourself of what keeps you from doing that, I suppose

Can anything have an effect on your level of enjoyment?

[Devin]

Just now, zurew said:

Can anything have an effect on your level of enjoyment?

Fear/ignorance

There are no levels of enjoyment, it's binary

[zurew]

2 minutes ago, Devin said:

Fear/ignorance

if fear is a relevant factor ,then we basically coming back to the main point, which is being biased towards survival, which bring us back to the "valueing utopia over dystopia" point.

Edited August 26, 2022 by zurew

[Devin]

3 minutes ago, zurew said:

if fear is a relevant factor ,then we basically coming back to the main point, which is being biased towards survival, which bring us back to the "valeuing utopia over dystopia" point.

I mean having fear period, fearing dystopia. I don't mean a fear(dystopia, death), I mean fear period

Zero fear, live in the now, heaven or hell, bliss

Edited August 26, 2022 by Devin

[zurew]

2 minutes ago, Devin said:

I mean having fear period, fearing dystopia. I don't mean a fear(dystopia, death), I mean fear period

Yeah but fear isn't coming from nowhere, because fear essentially comes from the need to survive or in other words, to not die.

[Devin]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

Yeah but fear isn't coming from nowhere, because fear essentially comes from the need to survive or in other words, to not die.

True. How do you KNOW you will die?