Daniel Schmachtenberger, the third attractor part 2

[zurew]

12 minutes ago, Devin said:

Do you think he's trying to avoid something, or do something? His primary motivation

I don't think you can separate those two in a meaningful way. For example if you want to create a framework for a fruitful civilisation you necessarily need to avoid civilisation collapse. The video you saw was focused on the problem part, because without addressing that problem we can't start talking about the positive parts.

 

Your argument boils down to negative vs positive motivation, but I don't think that you can separate those two in a meaningful way  (it will be dependent on the perspective),also I am still curious about how you could approach the problem of cilivilisation collapse without it being fearful in your mind.

[Devin]

18 minutes ago, zurew said:

I don't think you can separate those two in a meaningful way. For example if you want to create a framework for a fruitful civilisation you necessarily need to avoid civilisation collapse. The video you saw was focused on the problem part, because without addressing that problem we can't start talking about the positive parts.

 

Your argument boils down to negative vs positive motivation, but I don't think that you can separate those two in a meaningful way  (it will be dependent on the perspective),also I am still curious about how you could approach the problem of cilivilisation collapse without it being fearful in your mind.

RIGHT THERE

 

So, I feel like I've already said it as best I can so this seems like repeating myself but I will

I see a future dystopia as beautiful, not always, often times im fearful as well. When I can see the beauty, when I truly accept it not just that it might happen but accept that it's not worse than utopia, I can also with a playful mind choose to want to implement some of the things Daniel is considering, out of curiosity and adventure though.

It's not collapse centered it's something to try centered

It's not about results it's about the journey sort of thing

I wouldn't approach the "problem" of civilization collapse

Edited August 26, 2022 by Devin

[zurew]

23 minutes ago, Devin said:

I see a future dystopia as beautiful, not always, often times im fearful as well. When I can see the beauty, when I truly accept it not just that it's going to happen but accept that it's not worse than utopia,

One can accept death and still try to maintain survival.  Acceptance doesn't mean that you won't be biased towards something, so because it doesn't necessarily change your biases, it doesn't necessarily change your actions.

Everyone is biased towards survival except suicidal people.

Edited August 26, 2022 by zurew

[Carl-Richard]

"You see guys, it's possible to either view things through a set of action-oriented, pragmatist-realist glasses, or a set of New Age rose-tinted glasses, and because viewing it through the latter is completely irrelevant to the mission of actually making a change, I'm going to dismiss their spiritual chops for no reason"

[Devin]

7 minutes ago, zurew said:

One can accept death and still try to maintain survival.  Acceptance doesn't mean that you won't be biased towards something, so because it doesn't necessarily change your biases, it doesn't necessarily change your actions.

Everyone is biased towards survival except suicidal people.

I agree on the actions part but I think It should eliminate bias for a desired outcome

Was Jesus?

Edited August 26, 2022 by Devin

[zurew]

5 minutes ago, Devin said:

It should eliminate bias for a desired outcome

Without a desired outcome, why would anyone do anything?

And again, having a desired outcome doesn't necessarily indicates that you haven't accepted the opposite.

Edited August 26, 2022 by zurew

[Devin]

5 minutes ago, zurew said:

Without a desired outcome, why would anyone do anything?

And again, having a desired outcome doesn't necessarily indicates that you haven't accepted the opposite.

For the fun of it

I think it does

Edited August 26, 2022 by Devin

[zurew]

Just now, Devin said:

For the fun of it

So we end up being biased towards "fun" then. You can't really escape bias.

[Devin]

3 minutes ago, zurew said:

So we end up being biased towards "fun" then. You can't really escape bias.

Pretty much true, irrelevant though, nothing wrong with bias

Edited August 26, 2022 by Devin

[zurew]

1 minute ago, Devin said:

Pretty much true, irrelevant though

Its relevant, because you said, that acceptance should eliminate bias.

[Devin]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

Its relevant, because you said, that acceptance should eliminate bias.

For a desired outcome

[zurew]

You are still biased towards a certain outcome, you are just putting it behind a different bias in a sneaky way (this time you use the bias of fun in order to rationalise why you want a certain outcome)

[Devin]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

You are still biased towards a certain outcome, you are just putting it behind a different bias in a sneaky way (this time you use the bias of fun in order to rationalise why you want a certain outcome)

So the thought is to not want a certain outcome, there's no desired outcome to be biased about

[zurew]

1 minute ago, Devin said:

So the thought is to not want a certain outcome, there's no desired outcome to be biased about

Sure, but if your are being biased towards fun, and you still end up doing everything just to survive, then basically we can say that the bias of survival is contained within your definition of fun.

[AtheisticNonduality]

19 minutes ago, Devin said:

Was Jesus?

Jesus was crucified for a specific purpose.

3 minutes ago, Devin said:

So the thought is to not want a certain outcome, there's no desired outcome to be biased about

There is no reason to be biased toward desireless nihilism as opposed to desiring the purpose, in this case frameable in negative terms as avoiding collapse of civilization or in positive ones as moving toward a more ideal-based light.

[zurew]

@Devin So if you are biased towards survival, you by definition have to value utopia over dystopia, so at the end of the day you are at the same page as all of us.

[Devin]

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

Sure, but if your are being biased towards fun, and you still end up doing everything just to survive, then basically we can say that the bias of survival is contained within your definition of fun.

I don't think so, a lot of fun stuff where you end up dead.

[zurew]

5 minutes ago, Devin said:

I don't think so, a lot of fun stuff where you end up dead.

Whats your definition of fun? An activity, that makes you joyful?

Btw, you can't escape the bias of survival, because If you wouldn't be biased towards survival, you would have been dead a long time ago.

Your ability to have fun is resting upon your survival, unless you have a belief that after your physical death, you can still have some fun.

Edited August 26, 2022 by zurew

[Devin]

 amusement or enjoyment 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Devin

[Devin]

I have to go do something, I'll keep responding I'm not deserting 

Yes it's something fun

Edited August 26, 2022 by Devin