Daniel Schmachtenberger, the third attractor part 2

[Devin]

23 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

???

The only root problem to everything is fear, David is fostering fear. The absolute best he could do is prolong suffering, what he would likely do....

He's doing what he says not to; solving a local problem here while encouraging a different problem. A race to the bottom as he puts it.

Gotta love irony

Edited August 25, 2022 by Devin

[Oeaohoo]

I tried watching this video a couple of times today. I couldn’t stop laughing every few minutes. The guy says the most basic things in the most contrived vocabulary. His idea is literally just: we should pursue good outcomes and avoid bad ones. Thanks Einstein!

13 minutes ago, Devin said:

The only root problem to everything is fear, David is fostering fear. The absolute best he could do is prolong suffering, what he would likely do....

He isn’t necessarily fostering fear. If he sincerely believes that the present civilisation is heading towards catastrophe then for him that is just a simple fact. How one reacts to that fact is quite another matter. To quote an author that I quoted earlier here:

Quote

But even this, over which our contemporaries agonise so much, could present itself very differently from that advanced by a pacifist, progressivist, moralising humanitarianism. I truly cannot say what the one who still has hope for man should think of the immanence of quasi-apocalyptic destruction. It would certainly force many to face the existential problem in all its nakedness and subject them to extreme trials. But is this a worse evil than that of mankind’s safe, secure, satisfied and total consignment to the kind of happiness that befits Nietzsche’s last man? A comfortable consumer civilisation of socialised human animals, aided by all the discoveries of science and industry, and reproducing demographically in a squirming catastrophic crescendo?

 

[Devin]

12 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

He isn’t necessarily fostering fear. If he sincerely believes that the present civilisation is heading towards catastrophe then for him that is just a simple fact. How one reacts to that fact is quite another matter. To quote an author that I quoted earlier here:

 

Not intentionally, he has only pure motive, but the concept of us needing to try to avoid something is fear

[Devin]

19 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

I tried watching this video a couple of times today. I couldn’t stop laughing every few minutes. The guy says the most basic things in the most contrived vocabulary. His idea is literally just: we should pursue good outcomes and avoid bad ones. Thanks Einstein!

did you watch his sensemaking videos? He said those are a prereq

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Devin said:

The only root problem to everything is fear, David is fostering fear. The absolute best he could do is prolong suffering, what he would likely do....

He's doing what he says not to; solving a local problem here while encouraging a different problem. A race to the bottom as he puts it.

Gotta love irony

Daniel: "Hey guys, I saw there is a leak under the sink. I think we should handle this before it causes a flood."

Devin: "You're just fostering fear!!!"

[Devin]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Daniel: "Hey guys, I saw there is a leak under the sink. I think we should handle this before it causes a flood."

Devin: "You're just fostering fear!!!"

The end of man=leaky sink. Yep good comparison.

Daniel; there's a leak under the sink. Let me build a website and dedicate my life to figuring out how to fix it without causing global warming

Carl; send me your notes

Devin; Daniel where'd you go? turn off the damn sink if it's leaking

Edited August 25, 2022 by Devin

[Oeaohoo]

12 hours ago, Devin said:

did you watch his sensemaking videos? He said those are a prereq

More of them than I would have liked to have...

The entire problem today is that every idiot has to figure it out for themselves. They lack the capacity for this, as they always have, so someone else makes sense of things for them. Welcome to human society! The real issue today is that rather than having a holy priestly caste making sense of society for a given group of people, we have a bunch of Silicon Valley nerds and nepotistic elites making sense of society for unprecedented numbers of people. The whole framing of things in terms of mere “sensemaking” buys into the same delusional humanistic and egalitarian premises as progressive leftism. The essential delusion here is the idea that we can somehow escape human nature within human society itself.

What I ultimately can’t stand about all these models - Spiral Dynamics, Wilber’s adaptations, Game B - is that they are just even more smug and self-satisfied versions of progressive leftism. At least your ordinary garden variety progressive normie has just been indoctrinated from birth into the “it’s a small world, Disneyworld” ideology. These people are actually actively contemplating the nature of society but yet coming to the same ridiculous conclusions.

[Devin]

2 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

More of them than I would have liked to have...

The entire problem today is that every idiot has to figure it out for themselves. They lack the capacity for this, as they always have, so someone else makes sense of things for them. Welcome to human society! The real issue today is that rather than having a holy priestly caste making sense of society for a given group of people, we have a bunch of Silicon Valley nerds and nepotistic elites making sense of society for unprecedented numbers of people. The whole framing of things in terms of mere “sensemaking” buys into the same delusional humanistic and egalitarian premises as progressive leftism. The essential delusion here is the idea that we can somehow escape human nature within human society itself.

What I ultimately can’t stand about all these models - Spiral Dynamics, Wilber’s adaptations, Game B - is that they are just even more smug and self-satisfied versions of progressive leftism. At least your ordinary garden variety progressive normie has just been indoctrinated from birth into the “it’s a small world, Disneyworld” ideology. These people are actually actively contemplating the nature of society but yet coming to the same ridiculous conclusions.

i think it was attractor video number one where he spoke about how human nature does and has changed.

I don't think he's thinking for everyone, he's like a modern day Ben franklin

[Nilsi]

9 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

What I ultimately can’t stand about all these models - Spiral Dynamics, Wilber’s adaptations, Game B - is that they are just even more smug and self-satisfied versions of progressive leftism. At least your ordinary garden variety progressive normie has just been indoctrinated from birth into the “it’s a small world, Disneyworld” ideology. These people are actually actively contemplating the nature of society but yet coming to the same ridiculous conclusions.

As far as I'm concerned, the only conclusion that these people came to, is that trying to make the world better (in spite of the odds or "human nature") is a hell of a lot better, than being some kind of cynical degenerate.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Nilsi

[zurew]

12 hours ago, Devin said:

Daniel; there's a leak under the sink. Let me build a website and dedicate my life to figuring out how to fix it without causing global warming

Carl; send me your notes

Devin; Daniel where'd you go? turn off the damn sink if it's leaking

You can turn off the sink, but if its a complex problem which requires global engagement and not just a person or just a group, then mentioning a problem and outlining it and giving frameworks is completely reasonable imo and not fearmongering at all.

[Oeaohoo]

17 minutes ago, Devin said:

I don't think he's thinking for everyone, he's like a modern day Ben franklin

This is actually one thing I find subtly ironic about his kind: their very existence proves what I am trying to say. The competition today is, as it has always been, who is going to be the new priestly caste? The typical guest on Rebel Wisdom wants to be a member of the new priestly caste; the Game B guys want to be the new priestly caste; the shrinking Integral crew want to be the new priestly caste; mainstream media wants to be the new priestly caste; and so on. They all want to be but none of them are going to be! Or, rather, they all end up being the priestly caste of these bizarre virtual congregations which by their very nature can have no real impact on anything.

Yes, that seems to be what he's going for: a Founding Father for the 21st Century. In other words, a founding father who will never actually found anything! Besides, it seems the 21st Century wants more of a Smothering Mother...

8 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

The only conclusion that these people came to, is that trying to make the world better (in spite of the odds or "human nature") is a hell of a lot better, than being some kind of cynical degenerate.

Haha... Like I said:

13 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

His idea is literally just: we should pursue good outcomes and avoid bad ones. Thanks Einstein!

I am indeed a degenerate. So are you!

[Nilsi]

2 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

This is actually one thing I find subtly ironic about his kind: their very existence proves what I am trying to say. The competition today is, as it has always been, who is going to be the new priestly caste? The typical guest on Rebel Wisdom wants to be a member of the new priestly caste; the Game B guys want to be the new priestly caste; the shrinking Integral crew want to be the new priestly caste

No they don't. They specifically talk about open sourcing and how "the next Buddha is a Sangha;" meaning that collective intelligence is actually the way forward, not some kind of top down aristocracy or feudalism - these people are intelligent enough to be the biggest players in the world if they wanted to be, clearly that's not what's driving them.

[Oeaohoo]

1 minute ago, Nilsi said:

No they don't. They specifically talk about open sourcing and how "the next Buddha is a Sangha;" meaning that collective intelligence is actually the way forward, not some kind of top down aristocracy or feudalism - these people are intelligent enough to be the biggest players in the world if they wanted to be, clearly that's not what's driving them.

Yet they are serving the function of a priestly caste: mediating knowledge and helping people "make sense" of the world. Even in saying some pretty words about "love" and the "community" they are still playing the game of top-down aristocracy.

If only that was what was driving them! A true leader could speak truth to power and power to truth... That is what I meant earlier about Nietzsche: for all his flaws, he never forgot about the basic realities of power and immanence. These people are just floating off into the clouds. It really is worth reading about the etymology of the word nuance! It literally comes from "fog", "veil", "dark and dusky"...

[Devin]

45 minutes ago, zurew said:

You can turn off the sink, but if its a complex problem which requires global engagement and not just a person or just a group, then mentioning a problem and outlining it and giving frameworks is completely reasonable imo and not fearmongering at all.

I don't mean he's fear mongering, at all either.

The root to all societies problems is fear, Daniel is trying to solve our universal rather than local problems, which alone is fine. The problem is the universal problem is fear, and he is coming at this whole thing afraid of the outcome, he's trying to avoid an outcome; I.e. coming at it with fear. The solution to the problem he is trying to solve is to be fine with "hell" coming, no fear, that doesn't mean not doing anything, but the motive makes the difference.

[Nilsi]

13 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

Yet they are serving the function of a priestly caste: mediating knowledge and helping people "make sense" of the world. Even in saying some pretty words about "love" and the "community" they are still playing the game of top-down aristocracy.

If only that was what was driving them! A true leader could speak truth to power and power to truth... That is what I meant earlier about Nietzsche: for all his flaws, he never forgot about the basic realities of power and immanence. These people are just floating off into the clouds. It really is worth reading about the etymology of the word nuance! It literally comes from "fog", "veil", "dark and dusky"...

Of course they act as some kind of intermediate source for knowledge, but not because they want to monopolize this position, but precisely because they want to open source it. They are literally giving you the tools to make sense of the world yourself - that's the whole point.

As far as power goes, Jordan Hall was a massively successful tech entrepreneur and Schmachtenberger also seems to be quite aware of the dynamics of power and talks about Machiavellian and Nietzschean ideas - these people are definitely far from naive, when it comes to power. Is it so hard for you to believe, that people could actually be competent yet choose not to seek personal power?

[zurew]

14 minutes ago, Devin said:

The solution to the problem he is trying to solve is to be fine with "hell" coming, no fear, that doesn't mean not doing anything, but the motive makes the difference.

Okay, so in practice how would you approach complex problems without talking about it or mentioning it. Or if you fine with the mentioning the problem,then what would you do different?

Edited August 26, 2022 by zurew

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, Devin said:

he's trying to avoid an outcome

I don't think trying to avoid an outcome means you're fearful.

[Nilsi]

13 minutes ago, Devin said:

I don't mean he's fear mongering, at all either.

The root to all societies problems is fear, Daniel is trying to solve our universal rather than local problems, which alone is fine. The problem is the universal problem is fear, and he is coming at this whole thing afraid of the outcome, he's trying to avoid an outcome; I.e. coming at it with fear. The solution to the problem he is trying to solve is to be fine with "hell" coming, no fear, that doesn't mean not doing anything, but the motive makes the difference.

Dude, what are you smoking? He is not afraid at all and there is not the slightest sign of fear in his words. You just hear what you want to hear, apparently.

[Devin]

 

1 minute ago, zurew said:

Okay, so in practice how would you approach complex problems without talking about it or mentioning it. Or if you fine with the mentioning the problem,then what would you do different?

Approach it as adventure, with curiosity, for fun, but being completely content with it turning into hell if it does, seeing how that too would be beautiful.

[Nilsi]

1 minute ago, Devin said:

 

Approach it as adventure, with curiosity, for fun, but being completely content with it turning into hell if it does, seeing how that too would be beautiful.

Which is exactly what Schmachtenberger is doing - serious play.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Nilsi