Destiny reacting to Bret Weinstein and School activist.

[Scholar]

27 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I was referring to this specific context of him talking to a dude who has a certain set of values and trying to convince him that his values are shit.

Destiny played it perfectly here, it's probably the best move with the best outcome that was possible. He resonated with him because he lowered himself to his level, and was able to win him over to the extent to which that is possible.

What you offered is not a Tier 2 approach at all, what you offered is actually what someone at a lower stage would assume a Tier 2 approach to look like. It's hard to argue why exactly this is, but if you approached Sneako with the attitude you did there you would have been crushed and not achieved anything. It's like how stage green interacts with stage red, it just doesn't work. They don't understand stage red, and they don't understand what it takes to influence stage red. They approach it from their own lense, from their own stage of development. They think they can fix stage red, they think they know what stage red needs and wants. But they do not.

MrGirl is the perfect example. His attitude is a good mixture of stage green and orange, and that is exactly the type of person who he resonates with. He would actually be incapable of interfacing with people of lower stages, and that's because he is not Tier 2. His idea of what is good conversation, what is convincing, is not what is convincing to others.

 

What Destiny did here is literally the perfect example, 10/10, of spiral wizardry. Text-book execution, masterful.

Tier 2 knows when it's the right time to pull the sword and fight to the death, whereas ideologues and Tier 1 thinkers like MrGirl would face reality and perish. Their perspective, their attitude, their system of thinking, is functional in a very narrow spectrum of development. To the greater degree you are Tier 2, to the greater degree you will be flexible and capable of interfacing with all developmental stages. MrGirl has this naive and narrow notion of development, where he attempts to create an absolute resolution to the problem, where he says "This is the way, this will fix everything, if people were only more like this!". But that is not true. His perspective only works on a specific subset of the population, solving a very narrow field of limitations.

Tier 2 recognizes that you cannot just heave people into heaven. You can't get greedy, rather than projecting your own potential onto them, you start to realize that you cannot change a person fundamentally, but that you can influence them. And once you realize that, you can focus on that which is productive, that which will lead to actual progress. You help them to do one small baby step, rather than deluding yourself that you can carry them to the top of the mountain. And that is precisely the delusion MrGirl suffers from, which is his biggest limitation.

 

Notice how you think that Tier 2 is one specific approach, "Tier 2 looks like what MrGirl is doing!". But that literally is Tier 1 thinking. Tier 2 is flexible and adaptible, the very notion of a "right approach", is flawed. Like I said, Tier 2 can look like war, because sometimes war is the best and most effective solution to the problem. Only someone of Tier 1 would say they would let the jews get holocausted because they don't want to use mindcontrol on people. MrGirl would have talked to the Nazi's, tried to convince them otherwise. You know that this approach would be limited, in clear ways. That's why he is not Tier 2, Tier 2 will recognize that war was the best and most loving solution.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

   This is one of many example of someone who's at tier 1 cognition compared to Destiny, who's not quite at tier 2. Although this is used to compare and contrast in a somewhat negative light of tier 1, this man has happened to find his LP, and is a very talented YouTube horror reactionary, so good that he sometimes hurts himself playing and reacting to scary games and jump scares, this is some of his videos.

 

 

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, Scholar said:

He would actually be incapable of interfacing with people of lower stages, and that's because he is not Tier 2. His idea of what is good conversation, what is convincing, is not what is convincing to others.

Like when he interviewed Richard Spencer?

[Scholar]

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Like when he interviewed Richard Spencer?

Interviewing someone and being able to influence them through interfacing with them is not the same thing. Read the post I wrote fully and you will realize why MrGirl is clearly less developed than Destiny, he shows all the hallmarks of Tier 1 limitations, he infact is defined by them.

A stage green person interviewing and making lower stage individuals feel nice is worlds apart from spiral wizardry.

 

Richard used MrGirl as a tool, he does not have an ounce of respect for him. The only people MrGirl is influencing is the small subset of the population which is at a particular developmental stage to be ready to take steps into the orange-green perversion which is MrGirls ideology.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Scholar

[Carl-Richard]

20 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Interviewing someone and being able to influence them through interfacing with them is not the same thing.

A stage green person interviewing and making lower stage individuals feel nice is worlds apart from spiral wizardry.

I agree on these points, BUT (but), debate is not exactly the primary Tier 2 format, is it? You might say "Tier 2 has no primary format! That is limited Tier 1 non-sense!". Well, ok, but let's say that Tier 2 were to choose a general format to stick to, wouldn't Tier 2 care about what is actually generally effective though? Debate is usually not very effective for convincing anybody. Sneako being convinced by Destiny is one spaghetti that stuck to the wall. Maybe he was a loose brick that needed a little push, and in that sense, Destiny surely is the Spiral Grand Wizard who poofed him up the ladder, but from a general standpoint, is debate bro culture really the horse you want to bet on? I mean, there is a reason why therapists won't debate you. It's generally not effective. It can be, but it generally isn't. So the approach of "your values are shit; here is why" didn't read like a general Tier 2 approach to me, but I'll concede that Tier 2's versatility maybe could've snuck under my nose on this one.

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

I agree on these points, BUT (but), debate is not exactly the primary Tier 2 format, is it? You might say "Tier 2 has no primary format! That is limited Tier 1 non-sense!". Well, ok, but let's say that Tier 2 were to choose a general format to stick to, wouldn't Tier 2 care about what is actually generally effective though? Debate is usually not very effective for convincing anybody. Sneako being convinced by Destiny is one spaghetti that stuck to the wall. Maybe he was a loose brick that needed a little push, and in that sense, Destiny surely is the Spiral Grand Wizard who poofed him up the ladder, but from a general standpoint, is debate bro culture really the horse you want to bet on? I mean, there is a reason why therapists won't debate you. It's generally not effective. It can be, but it generally isn't. So the approach of "your values are shit; here is why" didn't read like a general Tier 2 approach to me, but I'll concede that Tier 2's versatility maybe could've snuck under my nose on this one.

It's like you are saying that swords shouldn't be used in all situations. Of course, that's obvious. With Destiny it's a bit complex because he literally is a debater, but in that context what he is doing is what you could expect from someone breaching into Tier 2. He has developed, over the past year or so, a very good sense of when the sword is appropriate and when it is not.

There is a reason why Destiny is so good at deradicalizing people, and he is also very aware of his own limitations. See, Spiral Wizardry doesn't mean you can influence everyone to the ultimate degree as if you can mind-control them. No, it means that you are aware of when and how you can influence them, and in what regards you are limited in influencing them.

 

The fact that Destiny is so flexible with his approach is what makes him so wizardry. He is not as ideologically attached to one approach, and he is focused on "what works", rather than how he wants the world to be. You can pretend debates are not effective at influencing people, but debates are still had, and it's the battlefields of the 21st century. You can choose to not participate in them, but then don't complain when the world shifts towards toxic stage orange because nobody is willing to go down to their level to face them in the arena. Wars are not always about convincing the other side, sometimes it's simply about one side not being able to take over the entire world.

 

 

[Scholar]

@Carl-Richard

Think of it this way. Someone who looks back at medieval times, and says "wars were so useless, such an unnecessary way of life! Wars should have never happened!", is not really looking at things through a systemic lense. If you look at wars, sure they are ugly. A lot of people die, it's a tragedy. But that's a moralistic approach to the question. The systems thinking approach would ask questions like:

"Why did wars happen? Did wars serve an important function in the developmental context of the time? How were wars necessary and essential for the development and evolution of mankind?" etc.

Can you see that these questions are fundamentally different from the first sets of statements someone might make, who demonizes war?

 

Now, when you say "Debates are a waste of time! Debate is not convincing anyone! Debate bro culture is silly!", you are doing the same thing. 

Rather, find answers to these questions:

Why is debate culture emerging?

Why is debate culture so popular now?

What function does debate culture serve on a systemic and societal level?

What necessary function might debates serve within this context of development?

How is debate culture necessary for the evolution of mankind?

 

I want you to assume that there is a good and important reason for the existence of these dynamics. That they serve a grand evolutionary process. Use that as a default approach to anything that happens on a systemic level.

You are free to look at those barbarians beneath you, and judge them from the top of the mountain for the silly games they are playing. But this really just means that you are the fool, for not seeind the grander picture. For not seeing that they are enacting a force that contains far more wisdom than you ever will. A force that you can only hope to partially decypher with your limited human mind. And once you approach things from that kind of lense, the more things in reality you approach from that kind of perspective, the wiser you will grow. Stop assuming that just because you are more developed than others, that you are above reality itself. Because that is what you are criticizing here, the intelligence and wisdom of evolution itself.

Maybe debate bro culture is a fundamental stepping stone towards the evolution of an intelligent species. Look at it precisely the other way around. Look at debate culture, look at war, and realize "Oh my god, this is what will lead to the kingdom of heaven.". Only then will you be free of your blinding arrogance, and recognize that being part of this culture, might very well mean being part of the evolutionary process on earth.

 

 

Look at Adolf Hitler, and see in him a bringer of peace. Someone who has brought to earth a century of unprecedented stability, by confronting mankind with the limitations of their selfishness and lack of wisdom.

This is how evolution happens, and this is how it will continue to happen, until we grow beyond it.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Scholar

[Roy]

6 hours ago, Joel3102 said:

Destiny is undeniably tier 2 at this point, whether he realises it or not 

lmao

[Carl-Richard]

@Scholar

I think we can agree that Tier 2 has a goal, and that debate (or "adopt my values now") just in its structure is inherently counterproductive to that goal, and that any potential benefit contains a risk or a compromise. When I see someone going against that goal in that way, I'll have a harder time reading it as a Tier 2 approach, even though it can still be that.

[Danioover9000]

   When I said that Destiny has a western bias and tier 1 takes, I'm referring to videos like this and related. A tier 2 cognitively predominant individual would not be making absolute statements like these without fully explaining each point of view viewing this situation:

   The internet and debatebrosphere has also impaired his ability to read real books at length too. Again, learn what is useful and modal that, and learn what isn't and avoid.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Danioover9000

[Scholar]

16 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Scholar

I think we can agree that Tier 2 has a goal, and that debate (or "adopt my values now") just in its structure is inherently counterproductive to that goal, and that any potential benefit contains a risk or a compromise. When I see someone going against that goal in that way, I'll have a harder time reading it as a Tier 2 approach, even though it can still be that.

If Destiny wasn't a debate bro, he would have never been able to influence Sneako the way he is doing here. One of the important things about Spiral Dynamics is that people need individuals close to their stage to kind of guide them on a healthy pathway towards the next stage, or to keep them from falling into all the pitfalls of the different stages. You cannot connect to people at lower levels if you cant engage them on their level.

The problem with Stage green and why it is so dysfunctional at the moment is because there was a runaway effect. People transitioned to fast, left people behind which then just lead to a dig heels in the sand moment, each reacting to the other. The further one side is apart from the other, the less likely it is that an individual will transition to the other side. It becomes more and more difficult for evolution to take place.

This is why the current stage green evolutionary pathway must be cut off, and we have to build a better pathway towards the high stages. Destiny is basically serving that function, but we need far more people to do so.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

   This is a pretty good example of some self awareness, and rationale used properly, with some tier 2 cognition:

 

[Danioover9000]

   Also a good video by Destiny, shows how difficult it is to maintain a perspective from tier 2:

 

[Danioover9000]

   Another good video of the limits of his worldview. In context he was going at this YouTuber for making questionable claims of his psychic powers, but besides the context, watch closely how Destiny goes outside this context, to generalize and distort this piece of information and makes metaphysical and epistemic claims about the modern world, science, and other people, while coming back inside this context of the stream to attack this person. Such beautiful mental gymnastics and weaponization of truths to his agenda!:

   Not quite as stage yellow as most would attribute to him. Thoughts?

Edited August 23, 2022 by Danioover9000

[Scholar]

3 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Another good video of the limits of his worldview. In context he was going at this YouTuber for making questionable claims of his psychic powers, but besides the context, watch closely how Destiny goes outside this context, to generalize and distort this piece of information and makes metaphysical and epistemic claims about the modern world, science, and other people, while coming back inside this context of the stream to attack this person. Such beautiful mental gymnastics and weaponization of truths to his agenda!:

   Not quite as stage yellow as most would attribute to him. Thoughts?

This is 3 years old, and even if I wouldn't say Destiny is solid yellow, he is definitely breaching into it.

[integral]

Is he non-judgmental on all topics and perspectives?

[Danioover9000]

   A brilliant showcase of Destiny's weakness: philosophers and socialism. And in such bad taste too, Jesus Christ. I feel sorry for his ADD levels of focus:

and the video of their debate: