Destiny reacting to Bret Weinstein and School activist.

[Danioover9000]

   Every reading, take notes. Interesting observations, and lessons to be learned here:

   This is why we need healthy integration of stage red, blue and orange, to balance off excess limits of stage green angst.

[Joel3102]

Destiny is undeniably tier 2 at this point, whether he realises it or not 

[Dryas]

58 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

Destiny is undeniably tier 2 at this point, whether he realises it or not 

A lot of his mannerisms feel tier 1. But if you watch his streams (and some YouTube content) like a loser for long enough you can clearly see a healthy dose of tier 2 cognition. 

[Danioover9000]

@Dryas

20 minutes ago, Dryas said:

A lot of his mannerisms feel tier 1. But if you watch his streams (and some YouTube content) like a loser for long enough you can clearly see a healthy dose of tier 2 cognition. 

   There's no clear cut evolution from tier 1 to tier 2 cognition. Destiny's just really good at debating, and explaining in a hyper logical fashion what and why your point of view is right or wrong. This can give a false impression that you are at tier 2. If he was at tier 2, he would have actually been able to explain, in a non-triggered and non-partisan way, the Russia/Ukriane conflict, and how each can be resolved in an ideal way.

[Dryas]

8 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

This can give a false impression that you are at tier 2. If he was at tier 2, he would have actually been able to

Well, maybe, but I think he easily hits on the some of the traits that make an individual tier 2. 

• Open minded
• Multiperspectival 
• Steelmanning arguments 
• Super aware of us vs them thinking
• integrating lessons from lower stages in his arguments (not that great at embodying it though)

 

[zurew]

30 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

This can give a false impression that you are at tier 2. If he was at tier 2, he would have actually been able to explain, in a non-triggered and non-partisan way, the Russia/Ukriane conflict, and how each can be resolved in an ideal way.

He can actually tell the Russia/Ukraine conflict from both sides really well. Being tier 2 doesn't mean that you never get triggered about anything.

He definitely has yellow aspects to him. He is the one guy in the debateosphere who can actually explain positions really well and in a precise way without strawmanning the fuck out of them . He can debate from a conservative standpoint and explain a conservative standpoint really really well, and he can explain liberal positions really well too.  Also, he is always saying that most of the problems are systemic and there are no clear cut easy answers to them. 

Basically, he can take perspectives, understand them deeply and because of that he is able to debate those positions well.

He is also able to meet people where they are regardless of the context of the debate/convo, he is self aware, he is aware where the convo is going (although sometimes he loses that ability).

I am not saying he is a fully integrated tier 2 guy, because he definitely lacks some things (like stage green aspects like empathy, bigger picture valuesystem, etc), but he is not a clear cut stage orange guy either.

Honestly to me he seems like a guy with tier 2 cognition abilities combined with a stage orange valuesystem.

Edited August 20, 2022 by zurew

[Kksd74628]

Destiny is easily tier 2 and that's why I have watched his content lately. I know that tier 2 or not is question that should be answered based on spiral dynamics model, but I think that being very logical, understanding and taking account necessary perspectives and overall being the chillest person in the panel is how I see who is tier 2 and who's not. If someone wants to be tier 2 then I have only one rule and tip for that; try always see if you're missing something in a conversation and make claim only when you're 99,9 % sure about the thing and if you find yourself being wrong then instantly apologize and move on to next points.

-joNi-

[Danioover9000]

@Kksd74628

13 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

Destiny is easily tier 2 and that's why I have watched his content lately. I know that tier 2 or not is question that should be answered based on spiral dynamics model, but I think that being very logical, understanding and taking account necessary perspectives and overall being the chillest person in the panel is how I see who is tier 2 and who's not. If someone wants to be tier 2 then I have only one rule and tip for that; try always see if you're missing something in a conversation and make claim only when you're 99,9 % sure about the thing and if you find yourself being wrong then instantly apologize and move on to next points.

-joNi-

   Not necessarily. Just because he argues and debates very well, doesn't make him tier 2. The question is, Is Destiny both aware of the limits of arguing, and is he willing to acknowledge how deeply limiting that frame work is, and that he put himself into a sunk cost fallacy?

   The degree to which he is capable and willing to answer that question honestly, is the degree of how much tier 2 cognition he really has.

[Danioover9000]

@zurew

33 minutes ago, zurew said:

He can actually tell the Russia/Ukraine conflict from both sides really well. Being tier 2 doesn't mean that you never get triggered about anything.

He definitely has yellow aspects to him. He is the one guy in the debateosphere who can actually explain positions really well and in a precise way without strawmanning the fuck out of them . He can debate from a conservative standpoint and explain a conservative standpoint really really well, and he can explain liberal positions really well too.  Also, he is always saying that most of the problems are systemic and there are no clear cut easy answers to them. 

Basically, he can take perspectives, understand them deeply and because of that he is able to debate those positions well.

He is also able to meet people where they are regardless of the context of the debate/convo, he is self aware, he is aware where the convo is going (although sometimes he loses that ability).

I am not saying he is a fully integrated tier 2 guy, because he definitely lacks some things (like stage green aspects like empathy, bigger picture valuesystem, etc), but he is not a clear cut stage orange guy either.

Honestly to me he seems like a guy with tier 2 cognition abilities combined with a stage orange valuesystem.

   Plus, he has a reductionist/deduction like worldview as well, which will also act as a filter for how he interprets data.

[Danioover9000]

@Dryas

35 minutes ago, Dryas said:

Well, maybe, but I think he easily hits on the some of the traits that make an individual tier 2. 

• Open minded
• Multiperspectival 
• Steelmanning arguments 
• Super aware of us vs them thinking
• integrating lessons from lower stages in his arguments (not that great at embodying it though)

 

   Sure, in which case he could have given a balanced take on the Russia/Ukraine conflict. It's not a binary, where you are only tier 1 or tier 2 cognition. Most people are stuck at tier 1, some are at tier 2, some are predominantly at either, and some have qualities of both.

[Kksd74628]

@Danioover9000

I have watched him talking with people who have different perspectives, ideas and values and it seems that if you give enough time for him, he can make sense of why you two dissagree and what could be logical step to take next. It think this thing alone is tier 2 feature, because he genuinely researches and tries to understand new information and perspectives. There is no limit of arguing per se because that problem only comes if someone's arguing is so much better than the other ones and that could be used not to see the truth. High logicality anyways helps this not to happen if you don't purposely use it for wrong intentions.

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

Plus, he has a reductionist/deduction like worldview as well, which will also act as a filter for how he interprets data.

Yes, and time to time he can drop that filter and entertain vastly different perspectives and wordviews.

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

 Sure, in which case he could have given a balanced take on the Russia/Ukraine conflict

Whats more balanced means here? Taking positions doesn't automatically mean, that you haven't thought it through from multiple angles.

Edited August 20, 2022 by zurew

[Carl-Richard]

Let's argue against him being Tier 2:

The approach of "this will not fulfill you, but this will" when it comes to something broad like lifestyle is not very Tier 2.

[zurew]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

when it comes to something broad like lifestyle is not very Tier 2.

Context to that clip is important. He was trying to shake Sneako's worldview to stop him from the hedonistic treadmill. 

 

[Scholar]

18 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Let's argue against him being Tier 2:

The approach of "this will not fulfill you, but this will" when it comes to something broad like lifestyle is not very Tier 2.

Of course it's Tier 2. The Tier 1 relativists will think that everyone is unique and there are no patterns in what leads to human fullfillment and happiness, but that is simply not true. By your logic Leo's entire work is Tier 1.

Additionally, Destiny (like a spiral wizard ), intentionally frames things in a way that will resonate with the person he will talk to. Meaning, he is aware that not everyone will enjoy a certain lifestyle, but that most people are delusional about the kind of lifestyle their pursuit, thinking that they are the unique butterfly for whom this is just the right thing. It's actually one Tier 2 thing Destiny lately has adopted, where he will adjust the frameworks and narratives he uses, and the certainty with which he makes certain claims, because he is aware of how it will otherwise be perceived by an individual at a certain stage.

 

By the way, he was successful in doing this, because he Sneako changed his position and recognized he doesn't actually want to pursuit the kind of lifestyle Andrew Tate is aspousing. So this is the worst example you could have used to show he is Tier 1. He did precisely what someone like Sneako would respect, delivering it with conviction and a lack of relativity/ambivalence. Remember, someone like Sneako won't respect your nonsense if you tell them "Well, maybe this isn't for you Sneako, most people don't find fullfillment in this!". People like him need that kind of confrontation for it to sink in.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Let's argue against him being Tier 2:

The approach of "this will not fulfill you, but this will" when it comes to something broad like lifestyle is not very Tier 2.

   I hope you realize this was clipped out of context, right?

[Danioover9000]

@zurew

2 hours ago, zurew said:

Yes, and time to time he can drop that filter and entertain vastly different perspectives and wordviews.

Whats more balanced means here? Taking positions doesn't automatically mean, that you haven't thought it through from multiple angles.

   In videos where Destiny gives he's take on the Russian/Ukraine conflict, he gave a more western biased view about the situation, and I haven't seen that he was able to explain the situation from the Russian perspective. He even demonized a philosopher, who's giving a more nuanced and stage yellow take on that situation. It seems like Destiny doesn't like philosophical people.

[Danioover9000]

@Kksd74628

2 hours ago, Kksd74628 said:

@Danioover9000

I have watched him talking with people who have different perspectives, ideas and values and it seems that if you give enough time for him, he can make sense of why you two dissagree and what could be logical step to take next. It think this thing alone is tier 2 feature, because he genuinely researches and tries to understand new information and perspectives. There is no limit of arguing per se because that problem only comes if someone's arguing is so much better than the other ones and that could be used not to see the truth. High logicality anyways helps this not to happen if you don't purposely use it for wrong intentions.

   He seems to not like philosophers though.

[Kksd74628]

@Danioover9000

Drop me link to that so I could do my research about that, thanks ahead.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

Of course it's Tier 2. The Tier 1 relativists will think that everyone is unique and there are no patterns in what leads to human fullfillment and happiness, but that is simply not true. By your logic Leo's entire work is Tier 1.

I was referring to this specific context of him talking to a dude who has a certain set of values and trying to convince him that his values are shit. That would be to, if not completely ignore, at least to de-emphasize the developmental lens. Go to a homeless dude and tell him that he needs a good wife and a job that inspires him. That's kinda what I was seeing here. That's different than making a lecture series for the people who need it. Different people require different things at different times.

But sure, maybe what Destiny is telling Sneako here is exactly what Sneako needs at this point in his life, but to me, it didn't read as a Tier 2 approach. What I'm thinking about is more like the Mr.Girl therapeutic approach of trying to facilitate self-understanding in the person, maybe asking "what do you think makes you fulfilled? What are your goals? Let's help you with that." But that said, Tier 2 isn't hyper-relativistic either, so it will try to foster a "healthy" version of whatever the person needs (a therapist won't help you build a meth empire).