Pick-up is a trap.

[BlessedLion]

4 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

@DefinitelyNotARobot I understand that some hopes and dreams are getting threatened or crushed right now. 

I am presenting an alternative, in the New-Age spiritual community. Those women are really intuitive and they understand what 'love' really is. They can 'love'! 

You just can't get away with manipulating them. Cuz they do shadow-work and they work on their conditioning. So, I want this to serve as a warning to PUAs, about the dangers of this modus operandi of getting laid. 

And, as far as what they want, they are loud and clear about it. No confusion. Imagine that, for a moment! 

Totally agree with this dude. Women in spiritual circles (legit ones, not bs) can actually pick up on energy very well and would reject almost all the Todd V type guys who are successful in clubs scenes. They are too smart for that shit 

[Dean Raymond]

I think the word 'pick-up' has many negative connotations associated with it. Everyone has a point in retrospect, but will ultimately depend on what your own personal agenda is. I know guys who have associated themselves with a genuine dating coach because he has an anxiety attack at the mere thought of talking to a woman, yet, he wants to find that special someone with whom he can build a relationship. Of course, practice, self-esteem, and confidence all come into play with that, so yeah, he has to do the pick-up work to be able to give himself the opportunity to approach and meet a suited woman. On the other hand, you have guys using pick-up just to get laid, and complete the process of nothing but meeting women just to sleep with. It comes with different perspectives.

[mr_engineer]

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@mr_engineer Girls are not attracted to love. They are attracted to SURVIVAL VALUE.

Love comes long after sex.

She's not gonna fall in love with you until you fuck her properly. And she's not gonna let you fuck her unless she sees value in you.

So if you want love, start with offering social value.

Another point about this - when you wear a leather-jacket, you behave a certain 'confident' way at the club and attract female attention this way and say that they see this as 'survival-value', this speaks to their conditioning from the movies. 

In the movies, the hero has this confident body-posture and he wears leather-jackets and he's socially confident. And, he's able to fight off the bad guys. And 'rescues her' from them. This conditioning from movies creates this association in women's minds. And, this is what pick-up caters to. As I said in my OP. 

And this is what cannot translate to actual love. It can resemble 'love' in movie-terms, cuz both of you are playing that character. But, it can't be actual love. Cuz it's based on bullshit, it's not real. 

Same goes for 'taming a player'. Comes from movies. Real life doesn't work like that! Then, they get disillusioned and ask 'Where are all the good men?!' 

Edited August 17, 2022 by mr_engineer

[mr_engineer]

Also, it makes it so women create this divisive sperm-war between the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys'. And then, they expect the 'good guys' to protect them from the 'bad guys'. And, the only actual difference between who 'you' are, in their minds, is how you present yourself. What clothes you wear, what you say you believe. And, of course, this illusion falls apart six months into the relationship. The wires have gotten so crossed that they've turned 'being nice' into a bad thing! 

And then, you have PUAs saying 'Whether she sees you as a 'good guy' or a 'bad guy' is a matter of having good game or bad game'. 

If you want love, don't stand for this division. Stand for unity! No more jealousy-games, no more flexing your lay-count. I will even go as far as to say that this is the real reason for incel-shootings, not the fact that they're not getting laid in and of itself. If we didn't lionize guys with high lay-counts (which is just a number, anyways), incels wouldn't feel overwhelmed with the pressure to keep up. They would take it easier, and their game would improve just like that. But, well. If you want to win the sperm-war, you're a part of the problem of incel-shootings. 

[Vrubel]

@mr_engineer You sound very inexperienced and therefore ignorant of the issue at hand. Sperm-wars? incel-shootings? remove these words from your vocabulary and commit to getting better with girls so you can find yourself one nice girlfriend. It won't be easy but definitely worth it for the self-development you'll achieve. The sex itself is not what it is about. 

I hope you will be able to read your post one day and cringe at it. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Vrubel

[mr_engineer]

@Vrubel 1000 approaches is a lot of work, a big commitment. 

It is natural for someone being told to do that, to ask 'What's the material incentive? Why will I be doing so much work?' It's like another full-time job, practically speaking. 

[Vrubel]

@mr_engineer

Do not be so intimidated, it's not a full-time job. It's mostly when you start out it's the most grueling. Eventually, you just have to find your way of doing this in a time and energy-efficient way. forget about the 1000 approaches. After a little time of approaching you'll be swallowed into the belly of the beast. Then you'll have to decide whether to commit or opt out. once you commit, you commit, then there is no way out for you anymore. Welcome to real self-development. 

It's true, most people don't have the vision, mentality or heart to commit. Are you "most people"?

[_Archangel_]

@mr_engineer No one has ever said PA first goal is to find make you find the love of your life. This might be a product of it.
As i already said you do coscious dating so that you become more authentic, leading, decisive, pleasent and fearless man.
And this will make you good at attracting women, and you can't escape the attraction phase in relationship.

Even if you find this hypothetical enlightened woman, you willl still have to attract her, make her curious about you, impress her. You will will have to go on dates with her. what do you expect? that she's going to fall for you just because you have spirituality in common?

You see what i'm saying? how are you going to solve this?
You might say "I'm going to be me and act naturally" but what if your natural you is an unattractive, unecperienced, fearful, boring guy?
Chances are that clueless guy, but funnier and more interesting than you will take her away and you'll be left with nothing
This is where conscious dating theory and practice comes in action.

It seems to me that it is you the one that believes in in that steriotipical love you accuse women to believe in.

You are basically asking to play a concert a the opera with little knowledge on how to touch a piano to make those beatiful melodies.
What about all the practice you must do and lessons you have to take?

Same with enlightenment: “Gaining enlightenment is an accident. Spiritual practice simply makes us accident-prone.” – Suzuki Roshi
 

[mr_engineer]

27 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

No one has ever said PA first goal is to find make you find the love of your life. This might be a product of it.
As i already said you do coscious dating so that you become more authentic, leading, decisive, pleasent and fearless man.
And this will make you good at attracting women, and you can't escape the attraction phase in relationship.

What happens when your girlfriend that you attract through this process, does some shadow-work, sheds some conditioning from movies, learns what 'love' really is and stops getting attracted in your manipulative ways? 

You need a different way of doing this than going to bars and clubs. 

27 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

You see what i'm saying? how are you going to solve this?
You might say "I'm going to be me and act naturally" but what if your natural you is an unattractive, unecperienced, fearful, boring guy?

Says who? PUAs?! Your friends? Women at bars and clubs? Feminists? Or your parents? 

Where does this distinction between 'natural' and 'unnatural' come from? 

Another big problem with it is that it conditions you to believe that 'this is wrong with you, this is what you have to improve, therefore, do as we say. Take our 1000-approach bootcamp'. It's a grift, from what I can tell. 

27 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

It seems to me that it is you the one that believes in in that steriotipical love you accuse women to believe in.

I mean, I don't see any other reason for something as silly as pick-up to work. It's bullshit social games. That has nothing to do with actual love. 

27 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

You are basically asking to play a concert a the opera with little knowledge on how to touch a piano to make those beatiful melodies.
What about all the practice you must do and lessons you have to take?

What practice?! Other animals don't have to practice this. Even our ancestors didn't. Where did this need to 'practice social-skills' or something even come from?! 

Edited August 17, 2022 by mr_engineer

[_Archangel_]

@mr_engineer

9 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

What happens when your girlfriend that you attract through this process, does some shadow-work, sheds some conditioning from movies, learns what 'love' really is and stops getting attracted in your manipulative ways? 

You need a different way of doing this than going to bars and clubs. 

again, you just have a distorted picture of what pick up is. Most of is not shady. And it is not a trick.
No amount of shadow work can prevent you from being attracted to some one if you genuinly are.
Even if you meditate i think your dick still gets hard when you see a pair of boobs
Same with with girls when good traits of a man are shown to them.
You are not - tricking - anyone. You just learn how attraction work-

 

23 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Says who? PUAs?! Your friends? Women at bars and clubs? Or your parents? 

Where does this distinction between 'natural' and 'unnatural' come from? 

Another big problem with it is that it conditions you to believe that 'this is wrong with you, this is what you have to improve, therefore, do as we say. Take our 1000-approach bootcamp'. It's a grift, from what I can tell. 

Bro, if in youre life you are constantly having great realtionship full of love and joy then you don't need to learn pick up.
Unfortunatley this is not the standard, and most poeple have never head a great relationship, let alone sustain it.

Of course like in all areas you find poeple that try to exploit you. This doesn't mean that because of this you must discredit a whole movement.
There are innumerable grifters in the spiritual community aswell. Does it mean that the whole of spirituality is a hoax?
 

32 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I mean, I don't see any other reason for something as silly as pick-up to work. It's bullshit social games. That has nothing to do with actual love.

pick-up done right DOES work. i agree with you on the rest.

37 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

What practice?! Other animals don't have to practice this. Even our ancestors didn't. Where did this need to 'practice social-skills' or something even come from?! 

You might not believe it or not, but social skills can be improved and there are ways to do that, and poeple teach it, and it works.
What you said here can be applied everything then. You can eat the fish raw just took from the river, why cook it? The answer? Survival.

 

[The0Self]

Sleeping with her on the first date -- max second date -- is not likely to fall into the frame of the standard romance story wherein the man waits 10 dates before the woman "let's him." It's all about your frame. If you don't want a particular type of relationship, make it known, and leave if it doesn't turn out that way. Simple as that.

[Leo Gura]

On 8/16/2022 at 2:25 AM, mr_engineer said:

@Leo Gura What is the survival-value of 'taming a player'? Wouldn't she be much better off going with a nice-guy, in terms of survival? Cuz he'll be a good provider and stuff. 

You should replace the concept of "nice guy" with "weak guy", then it will make sense.

A nice/weak guy is incapable of protecting her when shit hits the fan. So she isn't attracted to that.

Being a good provider does not hit her on a visceral level, does not give her the masculine containment she craves.

[Hardkill]

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You should replace the concept of "nice guy" with "weak guy", then it will make sense.

A nice/weak guy is incapable of protecting her when shit hits the fan. So she isn't attracted to that.

Being a good provider does not hit her on a visceral level, does not give her the masculine containment she craves.

Some dating experts/coaches say that a guy shouldn't be a nice guy or a bad guy, and instead be a good man.

[mr_engineer]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You should replace the concept of "nice guy" with "weak guy", then it will make sense.

A nice/weak guy is incapable of protecting her when shit hits the fan. So she isn't attracted to that.

Being a good provider does not hit her on a visceral level, does not give her the masculine containment she craves.

What I'm hearing is 'you have to be an asshole to prove to her how strong you are. And that's going to be the foundation of your relationship, not love'.

That is what I have seen to be the case, in fact, in pick-up. The shit-tests force you to turn into an asshole. Cuz they're fundamentally divisive. And you gotta pick between one bad option and another. I don't even know how you pass those and keep your integrity, to be honest. 

And, being a provider prevents the shit from hitting the fan! I mean, do they not know what goes into giving masculine containment?! 

Edited August 17, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Scholar]

10 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

What I'm hearing is 'you have to be an asshole to prove to her how strong you are. And that's going to be the foundation of your relationship, not love'.

That is what I have seen to be the case, in fact, in pick-up. The shit-tests force you to turn into an asshole. Cuz they're fundamentally divisive. And you gotta pick between one bad option and another. 

And, being a provider prevents the shit from hitting the fan! I mean, do they not know what goes into giving masculine containment?! 

Not to be rude, but I don't know if Leo is the right guy to ask considering he is not really that much of an expert on relationships? I feel like his lack of empathy kind of hinders him from actually understanding human beings, so a lot of it comes from intellectualization, similar to his framework around enlightenment and so forth.

I mean sometimes, the "insights" in regards to people and human psychology he talks about in his videos are so mindblowing to me that I am not sure if he doesn't have some form of autism. Just my perspective so take that with a grain of salt.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Scholar

[mr_engineer]

@Scholar The reason I'm talking to Leo about this is that I have a lot of respect for him as a man. He has a genuinely deep understanding of enlightenment, consciousness, God, love, etc. And, to be very honest, he is one of the few men who understands spirituality and who is talking about a concrete solution to the issue of getting laid. 

If I talk to some other PUA, they'll throw their own rationalizations of what 'love' is and what 'spirituality' is. That'll be zen-devilry. I don't expect any better from them, to be honest. I can be this honest here cuz this place shows a relatively low tolerance for toxic masculinity and has a certain degree of emphasis on the ethics of getting laid. I'm trying to add to the discussion of ethics, by adding the topic of ethics of finding love to it. Now, if pick-up ends up eating its own tail as a result of it, I gotta talk about it here! Cuz I have nowhere else to talk about it. And this is where you discuss strange-loops. 

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@Scholar The reason I'm talking to Leo about this is that I have a lot of respect for him as a man. He has a genuinely deep understanding of enlightenment, consciousness, God, love, etc. And, to be very honest, he is one of the few men who understands spirituality and who is talking about a concrete solution to the issue of getting laid. 

If I talk to some other PUA, they'll throw their own rationalizations of what 'love' is and what 'spirituality' is. That'll be zen-devilry. I don't expect any better from them, to be honest. I can be this honest here cuz this place shows a relatively low tolerance for toxic masculinity and has a certain degree of emphasis on the ethics of getting laid. I'm trying to add to the discussion of ethics, by adding the topic of ethics of finding love to it. Now, if pick-up ends up eating its own tail as a result of it, I gotta talk about it here! Cuz I have nowhere else to talk about it. And this is where you discuss strange-loops. 

You don't know if he has genuinely deep understanding of enlightenment, consciousness, God, love etc.

You could only know that if you yourself had that knowledge, and if you had, you wouldn't be asking the kind of questions you are. Getting laid is not the same as getting a relationship, they are two completely seperate area's of mastery. And it does not seem like Leo has spent a lot of time mastering the latter.

Don't put so much trust into him, use your own mind and explore this issue yourself.

[Nilsi]

36 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Not to be rude, but I don't know if Leo is the right guy to ask considering he is not really that much of an expert on relationships? I feel like his lack of empathy kind of hinders him from actually understanding human beings, so a lot of it comes from intellectualization, similar to his framework around enlightenment and so forth.

I mean sometimes, the "insights" in regards to people and human psychology he talks about in his videos are so mindblowing to me that I am not sure if he doesn't have some form of autism. Just my perspective so take that with a grain of salt.

I don't think it's necessarily a lack of empathy. The more I'm trying to have conscious relationships and invest in them, the more I realize how much of a pain in the ass they are. I can definitely sympathize with not wanting to get involved in relationships at all, and seeing humans as mostly unconscious selfish fucks, though that's still a perspective I'm not willing to take personally.

[Scholar]

4 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I don't think it's necessarily a lack of empathy. The more I'm trying to have conscious relationships and invest in them, the more I realize how much of a pain in the ass they are. I can definitely sympathize with not wanting to get involved in relationships at all, and seeing humans as mostly unconscious selfish fucks, though that's still a perspective I'm not willing to take personally.

No, I think Leo has a literal lack of capacity for empathy. I'm not talking about him choosing to ignore it, I'm talking about him lacking structures in his brain that give him the capacity to perceive certain things. And it's sometimes mindblowing to me that people don't recognize this, it's like the most obvious thing in the world to me.

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A nice/weak guy is incapable of protecting her when shit hits the fan. So she isn't attracted to that

We dont live in the stone age anymore. A nice guy provider is way more useful to her survival these days. Or is her attraction circuit still based on the stone age, on what would be useful in the stone age.