Pick-up is a trap.

[something_else]

Oh my fucking god, please just go and get some experience with girls. You're overthinking this. It's not that deep.

Build up some social value, get lots of exposure, see what's out there, and you will find love. You will learn what to do and what not to do in relationships by having relationships. Not by sitting in your bedroom thinking about relationships.

[NoSelfSelf]

@mr_engineer Who told you you need to manipulate? Find things in you that are authentic for example you wanna make her laugh then see what type of humor you like then pick a line you gonna say and throw it when its a good timing wheres manipulation in this? Manipulation is when you pedestalize women and try be something you are not to get laid ..

[mr_engineer]

25 minutes ago, something_else said:

Oh my fucking god, please just go and get some experience with girls. You're overthinking this. It's not that deep.

Build up some social value, get lots of exposure, see what's out there, and you will find love. You will learn what to do and what not to do in relationships by having relationships. Not by sitting in your bedroom thinking about relationships.

PROVE IT!! 

99% of people don't have loving relationships or they don't know what 'love' is. Why is that? They're doing exactly this. 

Do you know why most parents have kids?! Because they have unmet emotional-needs from their adult relationships. Because they didn't figure this out. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by mr_engineer

[_Archangel_]

@mr_engineer so:
1- You are making the error of thinking pick up is not ethical from God's perspective.
If you want to make spiritual, look at it from this perspective: you do pick-up to gain abilities, traits and remove mental hindrances that will make you more authentic, centered, positive, and from this newly aquired place, then be really able to truly give and recieve LOVE.

 if for manipulation you mean - Behave in a certain way with poeple so that it will cause them to act in certain way - then, in every relationship you use some degree of manipulation (parents, lovers, friends etc.) 

Now, i understand you worrings, as some viscious poeple, including the majority of PUA's, don't hesitate to make poeple suffer in order to get what they want. But there is also conscientious and sustainable ways to use Pick-up techniques so that every one wins.

So where should we stop then?
The aswer is, as any rule on human decency would suggest, do not use your ability to hurt poeple psichologically and phisically. This requires us to try to be always in check with the emotional state of the (potential) partner.



2- keep in mind that most realtions fails anyway. You should be in relatioship to have a good time, experience intimacy, complity, to gain insight into your self and others and possibly, love. But even the greatest of love can end.

This to say that pick up and relatioship in general are a way to meet you bodily and psichological needs.
So don't make the error of searching spiritual completeness and satisfactoriness into another human being.
Even though is safe to say that the dating game can help in the progress, the ultimate spiritual work must be done alone, indipendently of all the rest.
 

Edited August 16, 2022 by _Archangel_

[mr_engineer]

16 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@mr_engineer Who told you you need to manipulate? Find things in you that are authentic for example you wanna make her laugh then see what type of humor you like then pick a line you gonna say and throw it when its a good timing wheres manipulation in this? Manipulation is when you pedestalize women and try be something you are not to get laid ..

Can humor keep a relationship together? Or do you need a deeper hook-point than humor? Cuz there is a lot of competition on this front too. 

[NoSelfSelf]

@mr_engineer There is no competition dude ? theres is only one of your kind..

I just gave you an example humor is one thing it could be anything how you gonna move her,how you gonna make her think, how you gonna make her blush ,how you gonna turn her on, how you gonna make her feel passionate ,you create based upon what makes you passionate excited then you throw it creating your own game and how you gonna move...

Theres infinite layers of your own  creation that you create and then use it based upon situation and what you gonna do to her how you gonna show her who you are etc. Thats Game no manipulation needed!

 

Wheres competition when you create an experience an evening full of your own mind fun where will she find that?

[something_else]

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

PROVE IT!! 

99% of people don't have loving relationships or they don't know what 'love' is. Why is that? They're doing exactly this. 

Do you know why most parents have kids?! Because they have unmet emotional-needs from their adult relationships. Because they didn't figure this out. 

I can also ask you to prove that your approach is better. How many relationships have you been in using your approach? How many girls would you say you have built a connection beyond friendship with in your life?

I suspect your response will be "it's a game of quality not quantity" however the truth is that the best way to find a partner you connect deeply with and love is to experience a decent variety of different partners so you know exactly what you want from a loving relationship.

Edited August 16, 2022 by something_else

[mr_engineer]

16 minutes ago, something_else said:

I can also ask you to prove that your approach is better. How many relationships have you been in using your approach? How many girls would you say you have built a connection beyond friendship with in your life?

I suspect your response will be "it's a game of quality not quantity" however the truth is that the best way to find a partner you connect deeply with and love is to experience a decent variety of different partners so you know exactly what you want from a loving relationship.

I'm asking you for proof because I have counter-examples for what you're saying. And I'm asking you to explain them. 

For my method, I don't have proof in my own life yet, but I have proof from other people's lives. They've made this work and this is what they said. And this is where I want to go with it. 

[mr_engineer]

@_Archangel_ @DefinitelyNotARobot Manipulation is not an absolute evil by any means. 

However, when it comes to manipulating someone's ideas of 'love', this is where I draw the line. This I find to be very unethical and predatory relative to someone's emotional vulnerabilities. 

And, it dooms you to loneliness too, because you're going to be alone in the relationship. They are not going to be with you, they're going to be manipulated by you. 

[mr_engineer]

15 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Aren't you, in a way, doing just that by saying that pick-up goes against love?

I don't see how I'm doing that. Enlighten me. 

[something_else]

6 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I'm asking you for proof because I have counter-examples for what you're saying. And I'm asking you to explain them. 

For my method, I don't have proof in my own life yet, but I have proof from other people's lives. They've made this work and this is what they said. And this is where I want to go with it. 

What counterexamples do you have for what I'm saying? And what proof do you have from other people's lives?

From what I gather your approach is kind of just "sit around and think about what I want in a relationship and then prey the perfect girl magically appears in front of me and that I can attract her when she does" which I just cannot ever see being an effective approach.

My approach is pretty much "don't get stuck in theory, rely on your heart, feelings and instincts, have fun, get lots of exposure to different types of girls, do things that scare you and push yourself" and I'm struggling to think of a counterexample of that approach. It's literally just the basic principles of mastery applied to relationships. Or healthy pickup really.

 

[mr_engineer]

23 minutes ago, something_else said:

From what I gather your approach is kind of just "sit around and think about what I want in a relationship and then prey the perfect girl magically appears in front of me and that I can attract her when she does" which I just cannot ever see being an effective approach.

This is a strawman. 

23 minutes ago, something_else said:

My approach is pretty much "don't get stuck in theory, rely on your heart, feelings and instincts, have fun, get lots of exposure to different types of girls, do things that scare you and push yourself" and I'm struggling to think of a counterexample of that approach. It's literally just the basic principles of mastery applied to relationships. Or healthy pickup really.

That's vague. It's not concrete enough for me. I need something more concrete than that. 

I'm talking about problematic patterns that come up when hooking women. Practically. I say this in the OP. 

16 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

@mr_engineer By pushing for your idea of love and dismissing pick-up as a valid method to find love. That to me sounds like a confined form of love, because it's limited to one side of the coin. Again I'm not talking about the most extreme forms of manipulation, aka exploitation, but about a very subtle form of manipulation. That was what I meant by you, having to become aware of the subtlest of your manipulations. You're still trying to manipulate other peoples ideas of love into one that you can agree with. So am I btw. I'm not judging your for it, I'm just pointing out what I see. If you don't agree with it that's fine.

You can disagree all you want with my idea of 'love'. Someone asked me what my idea of 'love' is and I answered to them. That's my bias and what I want. It's also an option that people tap into for real. 

Here's the thing - in unconscious society, men tend to have a male-oriented idea of 'love' whereas women tend to have a more female-oriented idea of 'love'. It's self-biased. My problem with pick-up is that PUAs take the attitude of 'Let's agree to disagree on what 'love' is. I give you what you want, which is your idea of 'love' and you give me what I want, which is my idea of 'love'. (which is sex, really)'. And I don't see this as sustainable long-term, cuz sooner or later, conflict will break out. And the unconsciousness on either side can be problematic. (This explains a lot of 'female drama' in relationships lol)

Now, because I am a man, I know what to do about the male side of it. That's what I'm sharing with you here. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Applegarden8]

2 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

PROVE IT!! 

99% of people don't have loving relationships or they don't know what 'love' is. Why is that? They're doing exactly this. 

Do you know why most parents have kids?! Because they have unmet emotional-needs from their adult relationships. Because they didn't figure this out. 

Will this discussion help you in what you aim for? If not, whats the point of it?

[mr_engineer]

7 minutes ago, Applegarden8 said:

Will this discussion help you in what you aim for? If not, whats the point of it?

I wanted to see whether this forum knew this about pick-up or not. And what your objections would be. 

And, do keep in mind that pick-up is probably the most mainstream male dating-strategy right now. Especially for young guys. Older men have more money and status that they can leverage. So, in my opinion, it's a pretty important discussion. 

I needed to know whether I should do this seriously or not and if I do, what am I getting myself into. 

[mr_engineer]

@DefinitelyNotARobot I understand that some hopes and dreams are getting threatened or crushed right now. 

I am presenting an alternative, in the New-Age spiritual community. Those women are really intuitive and they understand what 'love' really is. They can 'love'! 

You just can't get away with manipulating them. Cuz they do shadow-work and they work on their conditioning. So, I want this to serve as a warning to PUAs, about the dangers of this modus operandi of getting laid. 

And, as far as what they want, they are loud and clear about it. No confusion. Imagine that, for a moment! 

[something_else]

38 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

This is a strawman. 

Then by all means explain to me how you plan on finding what you want in a relationship. What is your approach going to be to find the girl you want? In concrete terms to me what your approach is going to be to find the girl of your dreams?

38 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

That's vague. It's not concrete enough for me. I need something more concrete than that. 

I'm talking about problematic patterns that come up when hooking women. Practically. I say this in the OP. 

It's as concrete as it gets. 'Go and talk to lots of girls'

But in your mind that is pickup so you don't like it. It doesn't even have to be framed as pickup. It's really just doing tons and tons of socialising and learning how to meet lots of new people.

And I'm going to hold you to this:

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

I'm asking you for proof because I have counter-examples for what you're saying

...

For my method, I don't have proof in my own life yet, but I have proof from other people's lives

Elaborate.

The reason I'm being quite aggressive is because the way you are now comes across very similar to how I was in the past when I was inexperienced and it riles me up to see someone falling for the same trap. Sorry if I am coming across too harsh.

Edited August 16, 2022 by something_else

[mr_engineer]

1 minute ago, something_else said:

Then by all means explain to me how you plan on finding what you want in a relationship. What is your approach going to be to find the girl you want? In concrete terms to me what your approach is going to be to find the girl of your dreams?

Right now, I'm focused on my Life-Purpose. I am using that as a way to shape my authentic personality right now. It aligns with who I am as a man and who I am sexually. 

Then, when I seriously get to contributing value to the world, I will attract attention to me. Then, when I get female attention, I will be able to convert that. Because my authentic personality will align with the way I survive, the way I make money. 

I tried this last time. It would've worked, except that I was wrong about my Life-Purpose. This led to a big mental-health crisis for me. I had to expand my understanding of what my Purpose is. And stop dating for a while. 

5 minutes ago, something_else said:

It's as concrete as it gets. 'Go and talk to lots of girls'

But in your mind that is pickup so you don't like it. It doesn't even have to be framed as pickup. It's really just doing tons and tons of socialising and learning how to meet lots of new people.

Which girls? Talk about what? To what end? 

5 minutes ago, something_else said:

And I'm going to hold you to this:

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

I'm asking you for proof because I have counter-examples for what you're saying

...

For my method, I don't have proof in my own life yet, but I have proof from other people's lives

Elaborate.

There are tons of players who have insecurities about women, mental-health problems, can't keep a relationship. This is what they did. That's my counter-example. 

And, through my method, through going for people whose definition of 'love' I agree with, I was able to find people who I could genuinely connect and grow with. Now, I haven't gotten laid this way yet, but I can totally see myself getting laid. And, they themselves are in relationships and I see how they work, what it takes to make them work. I learn from their mistakes too. 

[Vrubel]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@mr_engineer Girls are not attracted to love. They are attracted to SURVIVAL VALUE.

I know what you mean: just loving a girl will get you nowhere.
Though girls are most definitely highly attracted to authentic expressions of (romantic) love. Such as passionate kissing, love in tone of voice, masculine protectiveness, ownership and being in tune with her emotions and "agenda" and also/especially vulnerability!

@Leo Gura
When you say "survival value" you make it sound like every guy needs to be the stereotypical Chad douchebag or some kind of successful millionaire. Which will result in newbies acting in all kinds of creepy and even sociopathic ways. 
If a guy wants to get good with girls. He either needs to get in touch with his authentic masculinity and/or with their femininity when a guy is overly masculine (though this is rarer). 

There are no shortcuts, strong men are made not born. But...! A cheat code I use before dates and before nights going out is to masturbate but not to cum. This will put me easier in touch with my powerful masculinity and sexual charisma, and my femininity is also still with me. I've done it so often that I actually can watch soft porn in a pretty disciplined manner, never feel painful blueballs and I also don't cum immediately when having sex. (after a while your balls seem to forget they were on the brink of cumming.)

So for the more feminine guys, I highly recommend trying this technique and noticing the difference in how you feel and act and how girls react to you.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Love comes long after sex.

She's not gonna fall in love with you until you fuck her properly. And she's not gonna let you fuck her unless she sees value in you.

So if you want love, start with offering social value.

I get what you're saying but it's not totally true. It definitely does not have to be this way. 
There are more "pure" and spiritual components at play as well. But yes, the better you get with girls the better you can capitalize on these aspects.

[BlessedLion]

On 8/15/2022 at 9:11 AM, Terell Kirby said:

@mr_engineer have you even tried pick-up to have come to this conclusion?

If not, you might be projecting negative bias against it.

Agreed. I’ve met tons of great quality women through pick up