Having trouble with political epistemology

[Jake Chambers]

Why is it so hard to make sense of the political situation in the world?

I’m having quite some trouble navigating the narratives and conspiracies that are spread all over the internet.

Even though far right conspiracy theories involving elitist jews are are clearly untrue to me I still feel myself drawn to the narrative that there is some form of globalist, you could say cultural marxist agenda in the world. I am seeing some evidence for this in my direct experience, such as the fact that European countries are making pacts with third world countries (such as the Marrakech pact that the Netherlands made with Morocco) to cause a very high influx of immigrants to the European countries, when it is clear that the majority of European citizens do not want this, and it is a fact that there Are a lot of problems with integration of migrants. And there is a lot of pushing of interracial couples in ads for example. It feels like companies are weakening people of all races this way. But it could also just be companies using it as a fad to fit in with this popular multicultural narrative to make more money. Yet somehow it feels like there is some truth to the “globohomo” neo-liberal agenda.

I know it is dumb to assume an evil cabal of elitists are behind this, but isn’t it just as dumb to assume that the cultural narratives that the neo-liberal mainstream media puts out are also true?

I am aware that for example Fox news is a huge gaslighting, twisting of facts pit of bullshit. But it also feels like there is so much more at play than what the opponents of Fox are telling us. 
 

What is the true narrative of what is going on in the west culturally right now? 
 

I am not trying to say that for example Joe Biden is as corrupt as Trump. It is clear now that Trump is very corrupt and even criminal. But isn’t it true that the MSM are very pro biden and are in this way clouding our perception of the bullshit that the liberals might be playing on us? 
 

To me it feels like the maga right are just medieval criminals and that the neo-Liberals are out for the money and using cultural weapons to destroy the current bastions of culture such as white people and black people, and trying to make a melting pot of culture so they can control the people more. For example you don’t see neoliberals pushing for traditional family values which is seen as a very “right” thing. Even though it is quite clear that family values are very important for all peoples to become strong. Why aren’t the democrats pushing for the family values of black people when they are supposed to be the party of blacks? The majority of black kids grow up without their father which causes a lot of problems in their community.

I think this is some evidence that there is something at least mildly sinister about the current neoliberal cultural narrative. 
 

I should be using more nuance in my phrasing of this post but that is precisely my problem, its hard to make sense of the nuances of the cultural political world which is the reason i think a lot of people fall for the trap of entering either far right or far left echo chambers and groups.

Also a critique to @Leo Gura, instead of just calling people morons who seem in your eyes to be falling into epistemological traps and thats that, try to teach us how to see what is going on politically in the actual content. For example instead of just banning @Yarco from the politics section, (which I understand), at least when you ban a member like him try to actually analyse his posts for example and point out what is untrue about it and why. You seem to have this air about you that if we dom’t see whats untrue about it we are morons and should not be in this forum. Well, try to imagine that a lot of us are having trouble with epistemology and we are not morons, it just might not be as easy for us as for you.

 

[Thought Art]

it’s very difficult to understand what is going on if you are for example, trying to understand it solely from news, articles and the day to day hype as people battle out their politics and culture wars. 
 

1. when looking at immigration try to collect as many data points and data sets as possible to understand that. I live in an area of the world that is EXTREMELY multicultural and it is creating an incredible healthy community each year as the different cultures mix and learn from one another. Many schools and class rooms are mixed from countries all over the world. 
2. the more humans spread out amongst themselves in the world the more people from different backgrounds will have relationships. Black, white, Asian etc… these aren’t so obvious if boundaries for more and more kids who grow up in very mixed schools. These ‘hard’ boundaries of the ‘races’ is an illusion and says a lot about your own development which makes it hard to understand what is going on. 
 

Why is immigration and mixing of races evil to you? Is that what you think? There are evil people behind the scenes trying to get white and black people to have babies? How is that evil? How would that make anyone weaker? I think in truth the opposite is true that when cultures mix they become healthier, more integrated loving and safe. For, what makes a world unsafe except when we see “other” and “us vs them”.

 

How would different cultures mixing make them easier to control? I think you need to let go that someone is controlling us in some evil way by mixing the races…. 
 

lastly, Your point on family values….  Traditional family values you mean a man and a women having children? Well, many people don’t fall into the category. Some are gay, and there are many other nuances. Family values and healthy communities matter which is why there are newer more modern family values and they may not be the same for everyone. 
 

Black people growing up without a father… well, there you need to study deeply the injustice of the US jail system, racism, generational trauma, poverty, systemic racism etc. Clearly traditionally the US didn’t value family values enough to help black fathers have healthy families by locking them away with minimum penalties for personal drug possession. 
 

From what I see, you can’t see what is really going on because you are yourself selfish, and caught up with so many ideologies, ideas, beliefs, etc

Maybe study spiral dynamics, the world value survey, how survival and collective ego work. Leo has videos on these.

[Jake Chambers]

@Thought Art Thanks for you reply. I do understand that my lack of cultural development definitely has a part in my misunderstanding of the situation. 
 

However I think you are also misunderstanding what I mean. My main point is not that advancing up the spiral for the world is bad, I am saying that things should be conserved and nurtured until they are healthy and to then progress forward in a slow, controlled manner. It seems like the neoliberals are misusing these progressive values for their own agendas, using said values as a guise to fool people that they are for the progression of society. You can say something which seems very highly spirally developed, such as that races do not exist, but this is actually quite unpractical and untrue in a society still at stage orange that definitely thinks races do exist. Even though it is an illusion, society itself is an illusion so we still have to act like a lot of things are real because these illusory things have very real consequences to the lives of people.

 

I understand for example that races don’t exist and I do not think it is evil that black and white people have babies. I think in a thousand years there will be only one phenotype because all races will mix and I’m not against that. But according to your logic critical race theory is false because races do not exist. However critical race theory states that while it is true that races do not exists, the social construct of races are so ingrained in society that they are practically very real. This is a very correct analysis of race in my view. So my point is that in the current stage of society  to have interracial relationships might be detrimental because it undermines the reality of the current problems with race and it is a detriment to both races to do it. What I’m saying is that it it’s best to have all races first become healthy within their own internal cultures before they start mingling. Just like a man and a woman should both not be mentally ill when being together because they will mix and transfer their problems to eachother. I think you are underestimating the relational problems men and women are facing nowadays in all races, which is believe is fueled by materialist and neoliberal rhetoric.

Immigration is not evil to me. But in the current stage of society it seems clear to me that a lot of friction is caused by it. Also for the immigrants themselves. Even if I was a stage coral wizard it would not change the fact that the current society are not ready for this level of integration and breakdown of culture. I think there 

It is also not completely correct that black people did not have traditional family values. Black kids not growing up with a father has increased substantially in the last decades, black marriages used to be a lot more common in the 60s. If you look at black cultural outlets like for example @spiritualword on instagram, you’ll notice that there is some kind of relational war going on between black women and black men. This is not only a direct consequence of ingrained racism in the US but also a very cultural, materialistic thing pushed by many cultural factors. Take for example Megan Thee Stallion, a prominent and rising star in black culture, who encourages young women to “get their hoe on” and “not give a fuck about no man”. Do you really think this is healthy for the black community? Stars like her and Cardi B are being pushed by mainstream tv etc. and they all seem to be part of the Neo-Liberal lobby and network.  There are many other examples of this. Do you really think it strange that I then think that the Neo-Liberals don’t give a fuck about traditional family values being the norm? When I think we all agree that healthy families are the backbone of a healthy community. 

Your arguments that many people fall outside of the family norms does not mean a lot. Of course gay etc people exist and should have all rights and shouldnt be hated and bigoted against. But 90% of people are heterosexual and their family values cause the fabric of communities to be good or bad. Heterosexual reproduction and families are to society what transistors are to computers.

 

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But yeah I guess I have a lot of work to do myself in raising my cultural consciousness. But that does not mean all those issues I discussed are unreal because most of the people in the world are at cultural and epistemological stages way below me, so it kind of defeats your point.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Jake Chambers

[Jake Chambers]

And I think it’s a bit strange that you assumed that I think race mixing is evil. I did not say that in my original post, only that it is being pushed on tv and that it is unhealthy fir the current society. I think that might be a projection on your part.
 

It’s not fair to say that I think something is evil when I have not said something like that. You make me sound like a trump supporter which I definitely am not.

 

You assumed i think some evil people are behind the scenes. When I specifically mentioned in my post that I do not believe such secret cabals exist. That does not mean that people in power, for example neoliberals have the power to influence culture in a specific way. It’s more nuanced than you pointed out.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Jake Chambers

[Jake Chambers]

In my part of the world (Netherlands) Immigrant culture is very materialistic. It’s not just Immigrants, everyone seems to be getting more materialistic here. But Immigrants seem to be invested into it extra. I’m curious to know in which part of the world you live where these cultures are becoming healthier.

[Jake Chambers]

Do you have suggestions for non-biased data sets and societal analysis?

[aurum]

@Jake Chambers If you really want to make sense of our political situation, it takes a deep proactive effort.

Start with understanding how the mind, epistemology and self-bias works. Leo’s work is good for that. Then you can take that foundation into analyzing more practical political issues.

Study economics. Study history. Study political science. Study sociology. Keep up to date with current events. And then contemplate all these things deeply.

Have a perpetually open mind, but don’t get suckered into lazy conspiracies or fooled by ignorant or biased people.

[Romanov]

Because per Leo’s ‘power of not knowing video’, you don’t know. 

[Thought Art]

@Jake Chambers Sounds like you have a lot to contemplate over the coming years. It’s best to study the following so we can discuss things at a higher level.

Consider studying 

1. Structure vs content

2. systems thinking 

3. recontextualization 

4. spiral dynamics

5. Susan’s 9 stages of ego development 

6. collective ego

7. world value survey

8. how your mind interprets reality

9. self deception

10. how to read statistics and how they are often misrepresented 

11. how to see the world from an egoless and loving place

12. multi perspective alism 

Read a lot, contemplate a lot. Allow your self to not know. 
 

There is a lot of noise on our planet right now and it’s really hard to know what is good or bad.  This is because we have our own self biases and are deeply ignorant of individuals. Pretty well all cultures throughout all of human history dealt with many conflicts, challenges etc. It’s important to be open minded, embrace not knowing. 
 

Personally, the mixing of races is not an issue. What is an issue is: education, nutrition, mental health, and the consciousness of the society. 

We do need to look at the world understanding the concept of collective ego. This is what you mean when you say we must understand that races are different. They are different, and they are the same. 

A lot of pop music is very low conscious and possibly damaging to the Youth. When it comes to the left or the right both have in them positive and negative attributes. You can be too progressive or too conservative and it’s challenging to know which is correct. There are many interconnected systems all at play right now in the world all full of so much noise and shit. Basically liberals and conservatives are both bat shit self deceived. Structurally most of the planet is sleeping. Though, contextually there are differences. 

 

I am in Canada. The mixing of cultures has always had conflict within it. Conflict is not a bad thing. It’s completely necessary. We have plenty of cultural conflicts here but, from what I can see and for me personally (I’m pretty developed in this regard… I identify as all races) the world is getting better. Though we have pretty good screening programs for immigrants here in Canada. I’ve grown up with Asian friends, black friends, etc etc

When I lived in the Netherlands I lived on an international campus in Dronten. It was very enriching. 
 

It can be very dangerous to bring stage red, uneducated people into a country that is for sure. Immigration isn’t an absolute good, either is mixing of cultures. It’s complicated for sure. 
 

The state of the world is so complex, you’d have to be God to understand it.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

For me it is so obvious that I have a hard time putting myself in the shoes of a newbie.

But I've been contemplating epistemology since I was 16 years old.

If you do the work long enough eventually human affairs just become so predictable and moronic.

[axiom]

@Jake Chambers Just develop a healthy dose of scepticism. Don't fall into the trap of left versus right or condemnation. Cast an eye over current affairs but don't become fixated. Above all, recognise that even if you understand all the machinations of geopolitics perfectly it won't make you happy or fulfilled.

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by axiom

[Gesundheit2]

It's not hard or complex at all. Everyone thinks they're right/good and that everyone else is wrong/evil. This gives their life deep meaning and a very powerful mission: I am a good person who is fighting against evil, which makes me even more good. The harder I fight evil, the better person I become. Of course, the truth is exactly the opposite. Everyone projects their own devilry outwards, makes it into an enemy, and fights it so that they can keep avoiding facing it inwards and reach the truth about themselves.

Basically just look up the term "Lesser Jihad" in the Islamic faith (as opposed to "Greater Jihad"). That's all politics in a nutshell. Everyone is an ISIS and a Taliban only in different flavor. That's what survival is. The rest is just methods, tricks, and techniques to arrive at that imagined ultimate goal of annihilating "evil" and making "good" prevail.

Of course, needless to say that each perspective is partial and never the whole picture. So no one is right, nor are they completely wrong. The perspectives serve to help the survival of the collective/culture and especially those at the top at the expense of the individuals and especially those down below.

[Oeaohoo]

59 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

It's not hard or complex at all. Everyone thinks they're right/good and that everyone else is wrong/evil. This gives their life deep meaning and a very powerful mission: I am a good person who is fighting against evil, which makes me even more good. The harder I fight evil, the better person I become. Of course, the truth is exactly the opposite. Everyone projects their own devilry outwards, makes it into an enemy, and fights it so that they can keep avoiding facing it inwards and reach the truth about themselves.

Basically just look up the term "Lesser Jihad" in the Islamic faith (as opposed to "Greater Jihad"). That's all politics in a nutshell. Everyone is an ISIS and a Taliban only in different flavor. That's what survival is. The rest is just methods, tricks, and techniques to arrive at that imagined ultimate goal of annihilating "evil" and making "good" prevail.

In Islam the two Jihads are not opposed to one another: the “external” and lesser Holy War, which of course like everything else is only a self-projection in the mind of Allah, is accepted as a symbol and a lesser expression of the greater Holy War against one’s own illusion of separation from Allah.

One has to remember that these latter-day religions are designed for an extremely degenerate humanity. The doctrine of the Lesser Jihad is a way for the Islamic doctrine to not only accept but utilise the inevitable tendency of fallen man towards projection and externality.

Fighting the outer enemy is a way to fight the inner enemy. Therefore, it is not necessarily a matter of ceasing to project one’s devilry onto others but of giving the fight against this devilry a metaphysical, rather than a crudely physical, dimension.

[Tyler Robinson]

On 8/14/2022 at 4:12 AM, Jake Chambers said:

I am aware that for example Fox news is a huge gaslighting, twisting of facts pit of bullshit. But it also feels like there is so much more at play than what the opponents of Fox are telling us. 

What possible bullshit are they playing? 

 

[Ulax]

Why is it so hard to make sense of the political situation of the world? 

You could argue that it is because all grand narratives are arbitrary. That would be a postmodern position, one I ultimately align with.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Ulax

[DocWatts]

There are a handful of avenues you could take for learning political epistemology, which include:

• Studying sociology, history, and political science
• Becoming more media literate
• Studying general (non-political) epistomology
• Gaining a general knowledge of how biases work, and learning how to apply that to your own cognitive processes
• Studying how paradigms work
• Learning how rhetoric is used in political forms of speech (so you can begin to recognize rhetorical tactics like dog whistles for instance)
• Cultivating dialectical and systemic forms of thinking
• Cultivating a compassionate outlook on life, which includes empathetic listening and genuine curiosity about people with different life experiences than your own
• Learning how to unpack ideologically loaded terms such as: socialism, fascism, postmodernism, etc.
• Learning how conspiracy theories work