The issue of degeneracy and how it relates to creepiness

[mr_engineer]

As I was looking through my beliefs about sex, I discovered beliefs like 'Casual sex is degenerate', 'boning a girl in a club is degenerate'. By 'degenerate', I mean, indecent, or uncivilized. This part of me also judges women who objectify themselves as 'sluts'. 

As I saw this, I noticed a pattern, collectively. That, most guys will treat a woman with respect when she's dressed 'decently', or when her body-exposure is not the most glaring aspect of her personality, even if she's in a bikini or something. But, when it is, when her body-exposure doesn't really go well with her personality or something, it's sexually suggestive. And, at the same time, there are a lot of 'nice guys' who are just holding themselves back because of societal standards. So, when they see a 'slut', their inner-degenerate comes out! And, their justification is 'she's being a slut too! She's also being degenerate. So, she's giving me the right to be one myself!' 

And, this is what women see as 'creepy'. They reject a lot of these kinds of guys. And then, when they hear incels saying that 'women are responsible for me being single', they say 'stop blaming women', because this is the picture they have in their heads! 

The guys whose inner degenerate shows itself in these situations, they're not even-keeled, steady or grounded. And this is what turns women off. 

Thoughts? 

Edit - When we talk about degeneracy, what should also be talked about, is that a lot of rape/molestation is on the far end of Stage Red degeneracy. This is why Stage Blue condemns degeneracy. 

Edited August 13, 2022 by mr_engineer

[something_else]

I think you’re over-thinking this my man

[SamC]

This whole slut shaming dynamic is something that really fazinates me.  I have never been judgemental of sexualy liberated girls.. atleast I haven't been aware of it but what I have noticed is the desire for my girl, to be my girl.

That masculine wants to feel needed and desired and hence dislike girls who go against their preconceived notion of how they personally feel valued as a man.  I think this is a a shadow element to these mens "inloyalty" to themselves that the feminine then mirrors back at the men.

This sounds a lot like the thing you talked about regarding that nice guys wants to be " hoes" and that they then despice that some girls can sleep around and act on their sexual desire; while they can't. They want to reconnect with their femenine but they can't, because they don't feel loved by the femeine outside because they don't feel that the feminine is loyal, or in other words - devoted to the man. What they miss however is that this is what they feel internally aswell, for they don't surrender and devout themselves to themselves. If you slutshame others, you slutshame yourself.

Edited August 13, 2022 by SamC

[Optimized Life]

That paragraph is fucking overcomplicated & badly written, got bored really fast. 

Being a creep is not esoteric thing attributed to some complex multivariate equation. 

It's a pretty simple & obvious thing once you observe it within yourself & others. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Optimized Life

[mr_engineer]

@Optimized Life I guess I'm just dumb, then. It's never been simple or obvious to me. It's highly subjective, in fact. And I find it important to make sense of the context. 

A lot of times, some behavior will be 'creepy' in one context and completely fine in another context. How do you tell the difference? What's the calculus behind that? Not so simple. 

I'm looking for the exact root-cause in the behavior of a 'creep' that causes resistance in hooking a woman. This is important for the long-term too. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by mr_engineer

[something_else]

27 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I'm looking for the exact root-cause in the behavior of a 'creep' that causes resistance in hooking a woman

This is the problem. Spending so much time analysing what is creepy is actually gonna make you more creepy. A woman doesn't hear about a man analysing how to not be creepy and think 'oh yea I want some of that'

Quote

I guess I'm just dumb

It isn't that you're dumb, not at all. Kind of the opposite. It's a common trap for smart guys to fall into where they get super theoretical and in their head about women while there are guys who aren't giving a fuck about any of this out there just taking action and slaying.

Fundamentally, success with girls is about getting out of your head, not getting deeper inside it

[mr_engineer]

10 minutes ago, something_else said:

This is the problem. Spending so much time analysing what is creepy is actually gonna make you more creepy. A woman doesn't hear about a man analysing how to not be creepy and think 'oh yea I want some of that'

What do you want me to do, then?! Just 'act on my impulses'?! My assessment tells me that that's the way to be creepy. 

If it were that simple, we would not be disagreeing here! I'm telling you, it's not. 

11 minutes ago, something_else said:

It isn't that you're dumb, not at all. Kind of the opposite. It's a common trap for smart guys to fall into where they get super theoretical and in their head about women while there are guys who aren't giving a fuck about any of this out there just taking action and slaying.

Well, I do care. And I think it's dumb to not care. If you're telling me that they don't care about being labelled as 'creepy', no amount of success with women is going to repair the damage to your reputation that comes from that. Also, it's really hard without figuring this out. 

[hoodrow trillson]

If you have ulterior motives and you are being calculated, you’re gonna come across as a big ass creep.

 

[mr_engineer]

@hoodrow trillson So, the way to not be a creep is to be stupid and impulsive, right? Is that what you're saying? 

My kind of woman, a smart one, would be creeped out by that. I think that a dumb woman would be creeped out/intimidated by a smart guy. 

[something_else]

36 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

What do you want me to do, then?! Just 'act on my impulses'?! My assessment tells me that that's the way to be creepy. 

If it were that simple, we would not be disagreeing here! I'm telling you, it's not. 

Women get attracted to authenticity, fun, emotions, playfulness, leading. All of those are created impulsively in the moment, they aren't calculated or studied. It is that simple. But it's also difficult and takes a lot of practice if you're a guy who spends a lot of time in your head, which is a lot of guys here, me included.

The way you learn is by taking action. By talking to lots of women. By learning how to feel into your body and be in the moment. Have fun. Be playful. Lead her.

What you are doing when you are thinking about or studying how to attract girls is like trying to learn basketball by reading books.

42 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Well, I do care. And I think it's dumb to not care. If you're telling me that they don't care about being labelled as 'creepy', no amount of success with women is going to repair the damage to your reputation that comes from that. Also, it's really hard without figuring this out. 

They do care about you being creepy. What I was saying is that the way to not be creepy is to talk to lots of women and learn what doesn't creep them out in practice. If you really suck with girls you're going to have to accept that you will probably creep some girls out before you get good at talking to girls.

If you're constantly in your head trying not to be creepy, that will make you creepy to a lot of girls.

20 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

My kind of woman, a smart one, would be creeped out by that. I think that a dumb woman would be creeped out/intimidated by a smart guy. 

This is kind of flawed thinking. Most girls are attracted to the same fundamental things, and creeped out by the same fundamental things, just like you and almost all guys are attracted to tits and ass.

[mr_engineer]

3 minutes ago, something_else said:

This is kind of flawed thinking. Most girls are attracted to the same fundamental things, and creeped out by the same fundamental things, just like you and almost all guys are attracted to tits and ass.

In theory, yes. In practice, though, every individual woman is going to have a different definition of masculine 'strength', depending on the kind of role she'd want a romantic partner to play in her life. And this is going to be decided by her level of intellect and self-awareness. 

For example, a lot of women who had assholes for daddies, their definition of 'strength', might be his ruthlessness. Or his willingness to say whatever is on his mind no matter how it makes the other person feel. And they picture themselves to be able to 'love them' enough to not be on the receiving end of that, while other people who she wants to be protected from, will be! So, this is what she'll subconsciously seek out. And, if a guy is being really PC and mindful of how others feel, she'll see that as 'weak'. 

Is this a smart woman or a dumb woman?! And would you want to be with such a person? 

[something_else]

5 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

In theory, yes. In practice, though, every individual woman is going to have a different definition of masculine 'strength', depending on the kind of role she'd want a romantic partner to play in her life. And this is going to be decided by her level of intellect and self-awareness. 

For example, a lot of women who had assholes for daddies, their definition of 'strength', might be his ruthlessness. Or his willingness to say whatever is on his mind no matter how it makes the other person feel. And they picture themselves to be able to 'love them' enough to not be on the receiving end of that, while other people who she wants to be protected from, will be! So, this is what she'll subconsciously seek out. And, if a guy is being really PC and mindful of how others feel, she'll see that as 'weak'. 

Is this a smart woman or a dumb woman?! And would you want to be with such a person? 

Yes, what women view as masculine strength varies. But the core is still the same. Being able to lead, being comfortable in your body, being able to communicate well, being able to emotionally stimulate her, having emotional intelligence.

If you can't do these things you can't attract feminine girls reliably. And you can't learn these things from a book, or by thinking about them extensively. Smart guys don't suddenly stop being attracted to tits and ass. They may start look for other things in a girl beyond looks, but the fundamentals of attraction are still running in their head. It's no different for girls.

You are overthinking this. Go and talk to lots of girls. This is the solution. You are not going to learn how to attract a girl you like by writing forum posts about your theories online. It's just a distraction that your brain convinces you is progress.

[mr_engineer]

@something_else That's like saying 'Go drive a car without learning what the accelerator and brake is. That theory is the distraction. Just look at what other drivers do and do exactly that!' 

Am I right? 

[something_else]

43 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@something_else That's like saying 'Go drive a car without learning what the accelerator and brake is. That theory is the distraction. Just look at what other drivers do and do exactly that!' 

Am I right? 

Yea but eventually you’ve still got to get in a car and actually learn to drive

It’s better to learn the theory side of driving as you go. You don’t really learn to drive well by reading books. You have an instructor who tells you things as you need to know them while you’re actually sitting in a car practicing

What you’re doing is like spending hours thinking about the accelerator and brake pedals of a car and convincing yourself that you’re making progress towards being a good driver

[mr_engineer]

@something_else Yeah, but there are no instructors here. Most of the instructors are self-biased and you gotta create your own manual. Now what? 

Imagine that the car is this mysterious black-box and you have to figure out how it works all by yourself, with no one helping you and everyone just saying 'The car just magically starts when you turn the key, it just magically goes forward when you push the accelerator', without having a framework of Physics behind it. And then telling you 'Why do you have to figure out how the car works?! Just drive it!! Don't worry about breakdowns, just go find another car! Yeah, you gotta work hard and save up to buy a new one, but we don't know or care about how cars work, that's too much theory/science. So, just do what all of us are doing here, which is to throw away a car that doesn't work, cuz we don't understand how it works'. 

[mr_engineer]

It is unbelievable to me that nobody wants to figure out how this works. Utterly remarkable. And when you try to do that, you get told that 'you're stuck in your head'. Unreal. 

If you don't know what makes women tick, how are you going to hook them?! Hooking is everything with women. 

[something_else]

52 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@something_else Yeah, but there are no instructors here. Most of the instructors are self-biased and you gotta create your own manual. Now what? 

Imagine that the car is this mysterious black-box and you have to figure out how it works all by yourself, with no one helping you and everyone just saying 'The car just magically starts when you turn the key, it just magically goes forward when you push the accelerator', without having a framework of Physics behind it. And then telling you 'Why do you have to figure out how the car works?! Just drive it!! Don't worry about breakdowns, just go find another car! Yeah, you gotta work hard and save up to buy a new one, but we don't know or care about how cars work, that's too much theory/science. So, just do what all of us are doing here, which is to throw away a car that doesn't work, cuz we don't understand how it works'. 

The framework is literally this:

• Go to a place with lots of girls
• Talk to lots of them
• Get rejected or find one that’s open to you
• Repeat

This is all the theory you need to start taking action. Once you start taking action you can look at some more detailed theory. But primarily you will learn by practice making mistakes

Your mind is tricky and will come up with ways to make you think you’re making progress without actually taking any action

You don’t attract girls with IQ. You attract them with EQ. But you want to apply logic and theory to the problem because it’s far more comfortable for you than going out and talking to lots of girls

 

[mr_engineer]

@something_else Do you know how women hook? 

You're gonna have to convince me of that to get me to believe your framework. What's the proof for your framework? 

I'm being asked to make thousands of approaches. It's too big a commitment for me to make, if it doesn't make sense to me. 

[mr_engineer]

The whole idea behind the point of 'don't ask women for dating-advice, only ask the guys who've done thousands of approaches', is that, the guys who have done it know how to hook women, when the women themselves don't. That's the only real difference. This is the value of a pick-up coach. Everything else is normal self-help stuff. 

If you know how a woman hooks, just directly tell me. I'd much rather have that, than the 'Let me set number-goals for you, let me hold you accountable', stuff. 

When guys ask you 'What's the good opener for me to use?! What exactly do I say to her?!' etc., this is what they're really asking you to tell them!! What hooks women?! I can understand you being critical of the attitude of 'wanting the right opener', cuz that doesn't exist, but this is what you're being asked for. And you gotta understand that. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by mr_engineer

[something_else]

If someone could simply tell you how to hook women we wouldn’t be having this discussion in the first place because you could just Google the answer and get any girl you want. But you can’t Google the answer. Because it isn’t that simple

People are complicated, women’s attraction is especially complicated. It’s based on a whole bunch of factors that combine holistically to determine whether she’s attracted to you or not.

Personality, masculinity, appearance, dress sense, how similar you are to her, how confident you are, your social status… The list goes on forever and it’s different for every girl

There are patterns, like confidence, humour, playfulness, edginess etc. that get you better than average success but you can’t really learn these things without throwing yourself into the deep end and talking to girls. It isn’t as bad as it seems once you start

Go to some parties, bars, clubs, start talking to girls and see what happens. No amount of learning is going to prepare you or make you less scared, you’ve just got to do it. Be a man and face your fears

The framework above is just a way for you to get more of an intuition about how to talk to and attract women. It’s not a magical framework to attract any women, since that doesn’t exist. It doesn’t take thousands of approaches unless you have really shitty social skills. If your social skills are decent it will be way less. You just need exposure to girls and some practice