How is life an “ultimate sandbox game” when there is an absence of free will?

[Inliytened1]

23 minutes ago, undeather said:

The rhetoricical approach kinda reminds me of Nahm's downfall ..if you guys are familiar with him (at least Inliytened1 is)

 

Indeed.  

[Nilsi]

51 minutes ago, undeather said:

The rhetoricical approach kinda reminds me of Nahm's downfall ..if you guys are familiar with him (at least Inliytened1 is)

 

This seems to be en vogue somehow in certain circles. 

Just listen to this madness. These people are like a hord of braindead zombies.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, undeather said:

The rhetoricical approach kinda reminds me of Nahm's downfall ..if you guys are familiar with him (at least Inliytened1 is)

Very far. Veganawake just tell his perception. His intention is to contribute and help. you can agree with him or not. he is not a manipulator or a wannabe guru scammer. in my opinion he's stuck at one point, but maybe he just means things his way and substitutes "god" for "nobody"

[Inliytened1]

40 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Very far. Veganawake just tell his perception. His intention is to contribute and help. you can agree with him or not. he is not a manipulator or a wannabe guru scammer. in my opinion he's stuck at one point, but maybe he just means things his way and substitutes "god" for "nobody"

He is a classic example of one who has adopted these teachings as a belief. Namely the neo-advaita teachings. 

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

He is a classic example of one who has adopted these teachings as a belief. Namely the neo-advaita teachings. 

2 hours ago, undeather said:

 

I don't know, looks like it is his realization after a life. But anyway, the comparison with nahm. Nahm didn't adopt any teaching. it was a very different case. nahm was looking to seduce.

 

 

 

 

[VeganAwake]

@Inliytened1 @Nilsi @undeather@JoeVolcano

❤ 

 

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, JoeVolcano said:

He is a lot more authentic than you are.

Appearances aren't always what they seem.

[VeganAwake]

5 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Appearances aren't always what they seem.

Bro you are the grumpiest Inliytened1 ever, but I still love ya!

Maybe smoke a spliff instead of hitting that Jack Daniels bottle ? 

All is well!

❤ 

 

 

 

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Bro you are the grumpiest Inliytened1 ever, but I still love ya!

Maybe smoke a spliff instead of hitting that Jack Daniels bottle ? 

All is well!

❤ 

 

 

 

Haha.  Maybe I shall.  How is retirement treating you?  Love you too bud.

[VeganAwake]

36 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Haha.  Maybe I shall.  How is retirement treating you?  Love you too bud.

Oh It's been a wild ride for sure, I ended up getting a little more disability than I thought, so that's been a great financial help with our three boys!

All is well!!

❤ 

[undeather]

9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Very far. Veganawake just tell his perception. His intention is to contribute and help. you can agree with him or not. he is not a manipulator or a wannabe guru scammer. in my opinion he's stuck at one point, but maybe he just means things his way and substitutes "god" for "nobody"

To be clear, I never said that Veganawake is a bad person.
He is clearly stuck in a certain paradigm, but without a doubt a lovely individual who wants the best for his peers. 

[UpperMaster]

16 hours ago, undeather said:

Just to mention a few different masters from different traditions - and they all can not help but to disagree with each other  
This is why we should all show some epistemic humility when it comes to those questions.

@undeather and @Inliytened1 .  First, I'd want to start by thanking you for this list because I'm really interested. Not intended as a criticism or anything else, simply an observation. I've looked over the list you've provided and briefly researched each spiritual master. I couldn't help but realize that most masters don't disagree with each-other like you say, but actually say something very similar. The only masters that vote for free will are Jesus, Meister Eckhart and Rumi. All other spiritual masters not only deny free will, but have almost the exact same implications: You cannot escape destiny, the only real choice you have is to transcend determinism by searching for god.

Have I missed something?

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by UpperMaster

[undeather]

2 hours ago, UpperMaster said:

@undeather and @Inliytened1 .  First, I'd want to start by thanking you for this list because I'm really interested. Not intended as a criticism or anything else, simply an observation. I've looked over the list you've provided and briefly researched each spiritual master. I couldn't help but realize that most masters don't disagree with each-other like you say, but actually say something very similar. The only masters that vote for free will are Jesus, Meister Eckhart and Rumi. All other spiritual masters not only deny free will, but have almost the exact same implications: You cannot escape destiny, the only real choice you have is to transcend determinism by searching for god.

Have I missed something?

 

 

 

 

Yes, you didnt research properly. Whats painfully obvious is that most teachers (especially eastern ones) will give sometimes contradicting views on free will, depending on which teaching you are looking at. This makes this whole issue even more problematique...

Maharshi is a hard spiritual determinist but also teaches the path of jnana' (knowledge) for increasing your relative freedom - but then he also talks a lot about free actions and the resulting karma...

Aurobindo says that free will of the individual is the co-creating force of spirit and therefore relatively real (You are not "different" from "it") - but he also says something different in other scriptures..

Yogananda: progressional (evolutionary) free will and absolute free will in the search of god - but also talks about you as an individual soul having free will....

Nagarjuna & buddhistic views in general: https://philarchive.org/archive/REPRBT

Lainer: Multipolar levels of choice... https://www.marcgafni.com/a-model-of-integral-scholarship/

All this confusion everywhere and then my own insights from, for example, psychodelics - which defintiely tells me that there is a relative form of choice and that we are somehow responsible for our deeds & actions here in this existence ..but that at the same time, somehow, everthing is perfectly determined and fine as well... 

This all led me to the simple conclusion: Free will vs determinism is a dualistic concept, it's always both and neither - live is if and forget about this stupid question

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by undeather

[axiom]

I award the gold medal to @VeganAwake

Silver and bronze still to be decided pending the outcome of further quibbling. Stay tuned.

[UpperMaster]

@undeather  alright! Thank you for taking time again.

[Breakingthewall]

On 9/8/2022 at 2:28 PM, JoeVolcano said:

It seemed to me that Nahm is the real deal, just a terrible teacher.

On 9/8/2022 at 8:33, undeather said:

 

I have taken time reading his texts. I still do sometimes on his current forum. it is fascinating. he says interesting, profound things, and suddenly interjects deliberately incomprehensible fragments. it is a strategy to appear remote, arcane. if you ask him about those fragments, he never answers. then he approaches people who are having a hard time, who suffer, and flatters them... he's a dangerous guy imo

[Inliytened1]

14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I have taken time reading his texts. I still do sometimes on his current forum. it is fascinating. he says interesting, profound things, and suddenly interjects deliberately incomprehensible fragments. it is a strategy to appear remote, arcane. if you ask him about those fragments, he never answers. then he approaches people who are having a hard time, who suffer, and flatters them... he's a dangerous guy imo

He's had awakenings.   So yes he is the real deal.  However sometimes his posts can be quite cryptic.   Dangerous? I don't feel that from him.  A good guy who means well.

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Dangerous? I don't feel that from him.  A good guy who means well.

 

Ask the guy he took $15,000 from when he was at his lowest point. 

He promised enlightenment by transmission and charged for it. and did not stop charging until the tit was dry

Edited August 10, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Inliytened1]

9 minutes ago, JoeVolcano said:

I think he could be a good guy who means well, even if I don't know for sure. But being a good guy who means well can also be very dangerous when combined with imprudence. The road to hell, etc.

Spirituality is dangerous to begin with.  Taking teachings as beliefs, for example.  One should be wary of any Spiritual teacher and trust in their direct experience.   Yes, absorb what they teach but then put it to the test with your own Spiritual practices.  I know you already know this but my point is you can't put the danger on the teacher.   You have to do your own homework.   I do think he gets wrapped up in no self to the point where it becomes word games and almost makes a mockery of true spirituality.  I.e. towards the end his response to everything was there is no you..  from that aspect one can lose site of the forest from the trees and must be cautious.    Ground everything in direct experience.   Also what is dangerous about spirituality is awakening itself.  While wonderful, you will also experience your own death.   This can cause psychotic breaks, depression, etc on the return and subsequent ego backlash.   Again not stuff you don't know.  

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

Ask the guy he took $15,000 from when he was at his lowest point. 

He promised enlightenment by transmission and charged for it. and did not stop charging until the tit was dry

Interesting - if true I did not know that.   But I find it hard to believe he would "promise" enlightenment.    Charging is one thing.  I don't charge but i have a diffeent job that takes care of my income.   if it's life purpose he has to survive somehow.  Its on the consumer to pay for teachings.   The promising enlightenment though and milking someone dry isnt right if true..