How is life an “ultimate sandbox game” when there is an absence of free will?

[UpperMaster]

After thorough contemplation and research, it is clear to me that free will doesn’t exist at an individual dualistic level. @Leo Gura's opinions on free will in a dualistic sense seem to be in line with mine. In many of Leo’s videos, he discusses the importance of not taking your life for granted and taking complete responsibility for your life. 

He also refers to life as this “ultimate sandbox game”. Sandbox games give the player a lot of freedom to explore without being tied to completing any particular objectives.  This advice seems to be completely contradictory to the absence of free will. As no free will implies that there is no freedom to explore anything, and that your life already has predetermined “objectives”. Additionally, the idea of no free will implies that it is not up to you whether you accomplish these "objectives" or not.

This stream of logic effectively makes life being an "ultimate sandbox game" incoherent. I suspect that I might be misunderstanding something, therefore I'm looking for alternative viewpoints and objections in this forum.

I'd appreciate if you reply to this post. Cheers.

 

[axiom]

@UpperMaster Leo has, to my mind, yet to awaken fully to the reality of zero free will. 

However, the idea of a sandbox in a sense seems correct. 

All of the failures, all of the heartaches, all of the obstacles encountered in life could be seen as merely preparation for awakening such that, when the time arrives, a form is willing and able to fully surrender and thus God can move through it unimpeded.

God sculpts reality over time to continuously refine and optimise the ability of forms to fulfill their (its) purpose.

[Kksd74628]

@UpperMaster

Problem with your logic is pretty common in this forum and in spiritual groups. You need to be very smart and conscious when listening advice, because there are always 2 levels to these things. Either you can think it spiritually or mundanely, but don't try to mix these 2 things because most likely you'll get lost in the knowledge. When we're talking about ultimate sandbox it just means that it's like a Grand Theft Auto V where you can basically do whatever you like under the restrictions. Restrictions are what makes the game and without those there couldn't be the game.

-joNi-

[UpperMaster]

48 minutes ago, axiom said:

@UpperMaster Leo has, to my mind, yet to awaken fully to the reality of zero free will. 

However, the idea of a sandbox in a sense seems correct. 

All of the failures, all of the heartaches, all of the obstacles encountered in life could be seen as merely preparation for awakening such that, when the time arrives, a form is willing and able to fully surrender and thus God can move through it unimpeded.

God sculpts reality over time to continuously refine and optimise the ability of forms to fulfill their (its) purpose.

To sum up, there is no free will and we are a part of God's complex creation that aims to produce a form that will completely awaken. If I understand correctly, what your saying is basically that life is only god's sandbox game and not ours.

I'm confused on your last statement. What do you mean by "fulfill their (its) purpose"? what purpose are you talking about?

[UpperMaster]

31 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

@UpperMaster

Problem with your logic is pretty common in this forum and in spiritual groups. You need to be very smart and conscious when listening advice, because there are always 2 levels to these things. Either you can think it spiritually or mundanely, but don't try to mix these 2 things because most likely you'll get lost in the knowledge. When we're talking about ultimate sandbox it just means that it's like a Grand Theft Auto V where you can basically do whatever you like under the restrictions. Restrictions are what makes the game and without those there couldn't be the game.

-joNi-

I understand where your coming from, however..(correct me if I'm wrong), it doesn't seem appropriate to me to divide spiritual and practical guidance to the point that they are incompatible with one another because, in principle, reality doesn't follow these distinctions.

[Kksd74628]

@UpperMaster

First of all I have to tell that your way of writing and mindset is good, because you allow yourself to see new things instead of claiming others to be wrong. It's like I can give you practical advice that you need to eat in order to live and you could argue that death is imaginary and you live either way. So what I am trying to show is that the content alone doesn't make sense unless you understand the structure the content is operating within. Same content can mean different things according from the perspective you look at it.

[Questioner]

You are free to do whatever you are capable of.

[VeganAwake]

7 hours ago, UpperMaster said:

As no free will implies that there is no freedom to explore anything, and that your life already has predetermined “objectives”. 

Contrary to how it seems, there just isn't a real someone in which could or couldn't have free will.....and that's the freedom ? 

A belief in predetermined objectives would only arise within the dream story of being a real separate individual living in a world of meaning, purpose and value.

There’s no real goal or objectives, those are just society's conditioned concepts.

Unconditional freedom is what seems to remain when it's recognized that there just never was anyone bound or free from the start!

❤ 

[UpperMaster]

10 hours ago, Kksd74628 said:

@UpperMaster

First of all I have to tell that your way of writing and mindset is good, because you allow yourself to see new things instead of claiming others to be wrong. It's like I can give you practical advice that you need to eat in order to live and you could argue that death is imaginary and you live either way. So what I am trying to show is that the content alone doesn't make sense unless you understand the structure the content is operating within. Same content can mean different things according from the perspective you look at it.

Yea alright, I think I see where your getting at. My ideas seem correct, but they don't make sense because I don't have a nuanced understanding yet.

I've thought about this for a few hours, and what you said does make sense. It is impractical to combine spiritual and practical guidance because my understanding of the spiritual guidance is incomplete.

I assume that I can get a better understanding through awakening or whatnot (haven't had any mystical experiences whatsoever lol)

 

thanks for the reply!

[Yarco]

The character in the game doesn't have free will, the player does.

Think Minecraft or GTA. The character on the screen has 0 free will, they're just an illusion created from code. They take input from the person with free will sitting outside of the TV / simulation.

Note that the total potential of the person sitting outside the game is artificially limited by its rules and boundaries when they "go inside" the game via their avatar (they incarnate into the game without ever actually leaving where they are)

[Nilsi]

This is the pinnacle of armchair philosophy. If you want to scratch your balls you will scratch your balls, so don't act like you actually experience having no free will.

[UpperMaster]

11 hours ago, Questioner said:

You are free to do whatever you are capable of.

How so? As per my understanding, it makes no difference what you are "capable of" doing because what you will do has already been predetermined. I'm sorry but I don't see freedom of will in merely judging your capacity to do things. 

[Questioner]

15 minutes ago, UpperMaster said:

How so? As per my understanding, it makes no difference what you are "capable of" doing because what you will do has already been predetermined. I'm sorry but I don't see freedom of will in merely judging your capacity to do things. 

Nothing is predetermined since you are determining what you do right now.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Questioner

[UpperMaster]

8 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Contrary to how it seems, there just isn't a real someone in which could or couldn't have free will.....and that's the freedom ? 

A belief in predetermined objectives would only arise within the dream story of being a real separate individual living in a world of meaning, purpose and value.

There’s no real goal or objectives, those are just society's conditioned concepts.

Unconditional freedom is what seems to remain when it's recognized that there just never was anyone bound or free from the start!

❤ 

I won't pretend that I comprehended everything you said, but based on what I can make out, it appears to me that you are highlighting the duality between being free and being bound.

 

 

 

 

[Inliytened1]

@UpperMaster there is both free will and no free will as the ego.  

It's tricky 

There is the appearance of free will that the ego has - and note that appearance IS reality.  Thus there is free will.   Because all you need is appearance- you dont need a layer below that.

Yet on the larger scale it is actually Your Will as God that is in play. 

You are willing everything to happen precisely as it is meant to on a level that you do not allow the ego to see.

[undeather]

18 hours ago, UpperMaster said:

After thorough contemplation and research, it is clear to me that free will doesn’t exist at an individual dualistic level. @Leo Gura's opinions on free will in a dualistic sense seem to be in line with mine. In many of Leo’s videos, he discusses the importance of not taking your life for granted and taking complete responsibility for your life. 

He also refers to life as this “ultimate sandbox game”. Sandbox games give the player a lot of freedom to explore without being tied to completing any particular objectives.  This advice seems to be completely contradictory to the absence of free will. As no free will implies that there is no freedom to explore anything, and that your life already has predetermined “objectives”. Additionally, the idea of no free will implies that it is not up to you whether you accomplish these "objectives" or not.

This stream of logic effectively makes life being an "ultimate sandbox game" incoherent. I suspect that I might be misunderstanding something, therefore I'm looking for alternative viewpoints and objections in this forum.

I'd appreciate if you reply to this post. Cheers.

 

The truth is that you experience free will/choice every day and all the time.
It feels like you can actually choose between pizza and salad - gym or couch - or which career path is the best for you. 
It feels like there are degrees of conciousness in your decisions, meaning that you can understand your motivations and psychological patterns behind them.
It feels like a choice to overcome your fears and do the things you actually long for in life.
It feels like a sandbox game.

It doesn't matter if free will truly exists or not. You live as if.

And no, you haven't figured this one out. 
I used to think that as well, but that's nonsense.
Boiling everything down to these neo-advaitan no-self platitudes is just so boring - but people will repeat them like they are caught in some epistemic echo chamber. Nobody in this forum really knows the full answer to those questions. The funny thing is that the free will vs determinism debate is highly dualistic in nature - which why a simple yes or no answer simply cant be the case. 

As you study the teachings of enlightened masters from different traditions, you will gradually realise that there is not one final answer to this question. They disagree with each other a lot when it comes to free will, so I think it's smart to remain agnostic and just live as if. 
 

Edited August 6, 2022 by undeather

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, undeather said:

The truth is that you experience free will/choice every day and all the time.
It feels like you can actually choose between pizza and salad - gym or couch - or which career path is the best for you. 
It feels like there are degrees of conciousness in your decisions, meaning that you can understand your motivations and psychological patterns behind them.
It feels like a choice to overcome your fears and do the things you actually long for in life.
It feels like a sandbox game.

It doesn't matter if free will truly exists or not. You live as if.

 

Precisely.  Appearance IS reality.  

[Kamo]

Maybe like the same way as in a video game. Your main character is doing everything freely, but there is no "character" there. You are controlling them. The same way as your ego thinks its doing anything but theres no ego there, God is controlling you. 

[UpperMaster]

4 hours ago, Questioner said:

Nothing is predetermined since you are determining what you do right now.

that's a way of looking at it ig.

[UpperMaster]

2 hours ago, undeather said:

The truth is that you experience free will/choice every day and all the time.
It feels like you can actually choose between pizza and salad - gym or couch - or which career path is the best for you. 
It feels like there are degrees of conciousness in your decisions, meaning that you can understand your motivations and psychological patterns behind them.
It feels like a choice to overcome your fears and do the things you actually long for in life.
It feels like a sandbox game.

It doesn't matter if free will truly exists or not. You live as if.

And no, you haven't figured this one out. 
I used to think that as well, but that's nonsense.
Boiling everything down to these neo-advaitan no-self platitudes is just so boring - but people will repeat them like they are caught in some epistemic echo chamber. Nobody in this forum really knows the full answer to those questions. The funny thing is that the free will vs determinism debate is highly dualistic in nature - which why a simple yes or no answer simply cant be the case. 

As you study the teachings of enlightened masters from different traditions, you will gradually realise that there is not one final answer to this question. They disagree with each other a lot when it comes to free will, so I think it's smart to remain agnostic and just live as if. 
 

Yes, I do recognize your point here.
In particular, the idea that there is no yes/no answer to the question given its nature.

I'll still look at other perspectives on this but your argument here makes a lot of sense.

 

Thank you for taking the time man. Really appreciate it.

Edited August 6, 2022 by UpperMaster