The Self-Bias of Farmers

[Scholar]

 

This is a really good example to learn about self-bias, it's one of the reasons why progress is so hard to make. Someone will suffer as the consequences of more sensible and rational policy, some people will lose money, some people will lose their jobs. And of course, they will have every incentive to both lobby against the truth, as well as deny the devilry of their own work. I have not seen as much cognitive dissonance in individuals as I have seen in animal farmers. They can tell you they love their animals, while they send them off to the slaughterhouses. They will tell you they love nature, while their livelihood depends on destroying and exploiting it.

Of course, not all animal farmers are like that, many are sensible and willingly transition to plant based agriculture, as well as starting to realize the moral hazard they are causing. The danger of the right is not that they will turn your country fascistic, the danger is the ideology they create to dismiss anything that restricts their freedom to cause harm in the world, the blantant self-bias they engage in, and the way the argue away reality so that their life's will remain the way they are. It's expected, that's the nature of self-bias. It takes a lot of consciousness to recognize the way you are harming the world, and be willing to make the necessary sacrifices to change.

 

Notice how the ignorance and devilry is biting these people in the ass. If they had been responsible and conscious farmers, they would have long realized that animal agriculture cannot be the future, and that it is unsustainable. They could have transitioned away long before the government was forced to put them in the situation they are currently in. But of course, they chose to deny reality for their own selfish benefits, and these are the consequences.

 

This is a valuable lesson for all of us.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Scholar

[mr_engineer]

Tell that to the starving people of Sri Lanka. 

[Scholar]

6 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Tell that to the starving people of Sri Lanka. 

Right, people are starving while we are feeding cows and pigs with grain, soy and corn.

[mr_engineer]

45 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Right, people are starving while we are feeding cows and pigs with grain, soy and corn.

My point is that the people in Sri Lanka are starving because of the government's restrictions on the fertilizers they could use. Not because the farmers are self-biased! And now, the Dutch government is doing the exact same thing to the Dutch people. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Scholar]

21 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

My point is that the people in Sri Lanka are starving because of the government's restrictions on the fertilizers they could use. Not because the farmers are self-biased! And now, the Dutch government is doing the exact same thing to the Dutch people. 

If that's the way you approach understanding the world, I don't think we will be able to have a fruitful discussion about this.

[mr_engineer]

If you really want to resolve the environmental situation, I'd suggest constructing an environmentally conscious business that's more economically viable and out-competing the problematic systems in the free market. Rather than oppressing the people who produce our food. I mean, talk about the insanity of supporting that, man! 

Do you want the rest of the world to become like Sri Lanka?! Is that what you really want?! 

Edited July 30, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Bojan V]

@mr_engineer

58 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

 

Do you want the rest of the world to become like Sri Lanka?! Is that what you really want?! 

Billions and billions of animals are suffering much more then people in Sri Lanka.

[mr_engineer]

@Bojan V Kid, in case you don't know, you need food to survive. So, you don't axe your own food-supply like that! 

You know what? Do what you want. Just don't come for my food. Or else you will regret it. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Bojan V]

@mr_engineer Actualy i'm not a kid and i grow my own food.

[Yog]

This is quite interesting:
 

 

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, Bojan V said:

@mr_engineer

Billions and billions of animals are suffering much more then people in Sri Lanka.

?

[Bojan V]

@Carl-Richard What seems to be the problem? Is the suffering of animals irrelevant?

[MarkKol]

@Bojan V  Up for some Farikal? Professionally seasoned by Carl's metaphysical Wisdom seasoning, now with extra Holons on top.

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, Bojan V said:

@Carl-Richard What seems to be the problem? Is the suffering of animals irrelevant?

We're all one and our sovereignty ought to be respected... unless you're an animal, or insect, or really anything that isn't a human!

 

The good thing about lack of compassion is that it will bite you in the ass, as we can already see on a global scale. The very reason why people are starving is because of selective compassion.

[Stovo]

@Scholar You seem stuck in stage green thinking, you're not understanding the complexity of the situation. 

You also fail to realise that a vegan diet is not healthy for the majority, though can work for some. We need meat we just need to do it in an ethical and sustainable way. 

[Scholar]

Just now, Stovo said:

@Scholar You seem stuck in stage green thinking, you're not understanding the complexity of the situation. 

You also fail to realise that a vegan diet is not healthy for the majority, though can work for some. We need meat we just need to do it in an ethical and sustainable way. 

You are using Spiral Dynamics in the precise way it ought not to be used, which ironically showcases your lack of sophistication in regards to understanding the model and your own development.

If you want to give a critique, give the critique. Stop being a child and throwing words around as if they were arguments.

 

I can just assert the opposite you claimed, without evidence, as you did. And then what? You will give me a speech about how the world government is creating studies after studies showing a vegan diet is appropriate for everyone? I have no interest in these discussions.

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

We're all one and our sovereignty ought to be respected... unless you're an animal, or insect, or really anything that isn't a human!

The philosophical side of the conversation:

Where do you draw your line, when it comes to your morality? I assume this is your foundation --> Anything that could be considered sovereign is ought to be respected. So the questions is this: What do you consider sovereign ?

Practical side of the conversation:

18 hours ago, Scholar said:

They could have transitioned away long before the government was forced to put them in the situation they are currently in

They were not incentivised to do so. When your livelihood is depended on farming, they can't just easily transition especially, if they live from day to day. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by zurew

[Stovo]

9 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You are using Spiral Dynamics in the precise way it ought not to be used, which ironically showcases your lack of sophistication in regards to understanding the model and your own development.

If you want to give a critique, give the critique. Stop being a child and throwing words around as if they were arguments.

 

I can just assert the opposite you claimed, without evidence, as you did. And then what? You will give me a speech about how the world government is creating studies after studies showing a vegan diet is appropriate for everyone? I have no interest in these discussions.

The evidence is in your own words. You clearly have your own strong self bias towards veganism and are not prepared to listen to alternative views or recognise the complexity of the situation. 

[Scholar]

3 hours ago, zurew said:

The philosophical side of the conversation:

Where do you draw your line, when it comes to your morality? I assume this is your foundation --> Anything that could be considered sovereign is ought to be respected. So the questions is this: What do you consider sovereign ?

This is not my position, but the position of Leo as well as people who seem to follow him. I'm not interested in a philosophical discussion, this is not the topic of the thread.

 

3 hours ago, zurew said:

They were not incentivised to do so. When your livelihood is depended on farming, they can't just easily transition especially, if they live from day to day. 

True, which is why consciousness is so important. If you had been conscious during the time of slavery, and your livelihood depended on slavery, you would have predicted that the way you have constructed your life was unsustainable. You would have transitioned long before governments were pushed to enforce these policies the way they do. In fact, your very self bias has lead to this situation, because you have been denying reality for decades, and even lobbied against it, coming up with reasons why slavery is good, why slavery is moral, and why those who are trying to enforce laws against your interests are just doing so out of some sort of conspiracy to gain control over the population. You could have used that time and effort to work on solving the problems you would face, and go with the flow of evolution, instead of trying to stop it.

This is blatant self-bias, and this is why self-bias does not survive. It's the very reason why progress exists in the first place, precisely because that's how evolution is structured.

 

I support governments helping farmers transition, subsidizing them and so forth if they choose to go plant based. But the farmers have advocated for the opposite. Instead of advocating for subsidies to transition, they advocated for subsidies for their dairy farms, which simply are not economically viable. Instead of having focused on how the government could help them transition, they dug their heels into the sand, denying environmental science in favor of their own self interest.

 

I am not trying to moralize, I am trying to show you the problem with self bias, and this is the perfect illustration of it. You will see much more of this in the future, as the consequences of environmental destruction will become more severe. At that point, there will be no negotating, it will be too late for that. The nightmare of the authoritarian government will become true to the degree to which people continue to be selfish.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Scholar

[zurew]

34 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I'm not interested in a philosophical discussion, this is not the topic of the thread.

Okay, understood.

34 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I am not trying to moralize, I am trying to show you the problem with self bias, and this is the perfect illustration of it. You will see much more of this in the future, as the consequences of environmental destruction will become more severe. At that point, there will be no negotating, it will be too late for that. The nightmare of the authoritarian government will become true to the degree to which people continue to be selfish.

Yeah i understand. But imo, the responsibility is on the conscious people to change these stuff, especially because people who are not conscious of their self bias, and their selfishness, won't change on their own, unless we elevate their level of consciousness radically (and that is not realistic if we are talking about a short period of time). So practically speaking, people who are conscious, intelligent and smart enough and have enough resources should do the heavywork, because others won't do shit and we shouldn't even expect from them to do anything (unless we can make a systemic solution where we can incentivise them to do more conscious things).

I think its not even worth talking about "these people are so biased" or that "these people are not conscious enough" because that won't really change the situtation, but i understand that this thread wasn't about speaking about the solutions , but pointing out how radical self bias works.