Top Scientists Are Mystics

[PureExp]

This came up in another discussion, but I liked the quotes here so much that I think its worth sharing here.

http://arsspiritus.com/science-quotes-will-make-question-reality/

What does that tell us? Great scientists are not narrow-minded materialists. This is a propaganda, a belief, ignorance.

Common people, lacking any deep knowledge of science, blindly believe whatever they are told. Now, many scientists are ignorant and are believers in materialism, but that's because they are just humans. It has nothing to do with science, which cannot automatically, magically turn you into a materialistic dogmatic narrow-minded idiot. Those scientists, who are like that, are because of their own bloated egos.

[Nahm]

Interesting post. I find that people won't believe what they are told, vs blindly believe what they are told. 

[Loreena]

Some people just think in Newtonian reductionist ways. They put everything else into the box of obscurantism. They cannot believe that something can exist beyond their realm of thinking. I hope they understand that people have their own ways of dealing with things. Science should not have to take the blame for their shortcomings. 

[PureExp]

1 hour ago, Loreena said:

obscurantism

I learnt a new word. Thanks

[Nahm]

@PureExp Super awesome post btw. Those are my favorite kind of quotes.

 

[Nahm]

On 2/23/2017 at 8:42 PM, Loreena said:

Some people just think in Newtonian reductionist ways. They put everything else into the box of obscurantism. They cannot believe that something can exist beyond their realm of thinking. I hope they understand that people have their own ways of dealing with things. Science should not have to take the blame for their shortcomings. 

Are you no longer one of 'those people'?

Sent with love

[Loreena]

@Nahm  I have changed after watching a lot of Leo's videos. His ways of thinking have had an impact on me. Now I think everything is very mystical and even science cannot grasp it.

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Loreena said:

@Nahm  I have changed after watching a lot of Leo's videos. His ways of thinking have had an impact on me. Now I think everything is very mystical and even science cannot grasp it.

Science has- grasped it. You just haven't learned the science. No offense, I don't mean it like you're not intelligent, you obviously are very intelligent. I'm just referring to the balance topic (loosely). If you start studying quantum mechanics, eventually you will find that what is already known to be true about reality is far more mind blowing and magical than anything fictional or mystical could ever be. The crazy crazy crazy part is, that it is surrounding you right now in this moment. 

[Flare]

@Nahm Did you give Nassim Nicholas Taleb a read? 

One new observation (in the extremistan) can destroy the whole concept made up by science so far, because you have a huge range of variables where a single adjustment or even new one can change everything. 

[Nahm]

@Flare I will check him out today. I'm curious about what you're saying. How could it be possible that any new information could change the observer effect / uncertainty principle and quantum erasure / delayed choice? The very point of the understanding of these principles already encompasses any new observation. 

[Flare]

@Nahm I'm actually not deep into quantum mechanics, I gotta admit. But this kind of thinking should still apply. Taleb take the most obvious example of the black swan, where before we explored Australia everyone, even every scientist, would tell you that they're only white swans. Because there are 3 kind of things; things  we know, things we know we don't know and most importantly things we don't know we don't know. So the exploration of black swans changed everything we used to know about swans. Well yes, kinda simple example. 

But to make the point clear, I think this video gives a good idea. It's about which rule the numbers follow. As long as you don't know every single number in that is applying to this you actually can never be sure. Same goes to science. Imagine this: tomorrow you'll find that not only does 2x2 equals 4, it equals 7 as well. This won't make your first assumption false, but it would change the whole dynamic of mathematics, even though this is obviously not true and never will. But physics are by far more complex than mathematics. 

What happens if you find a particle which existence you can not possibly explain? It's not a fractal, following Mandelbrots theory (btw he used to be a good friend of Taleb), would this piece prove that there must be something like Genesis? Or does it just mean that the world just is? 

But most importantly coming back to the starting point, our horizon is only as far as our knowledge let him be. But it's behind this horizon where things might happen that would screw every scientific theory around. But the point is, as long you didn't reach the complete freedom (@Hegel) where you know exactly everything that exists, is happening etc. you will never be able to be 100% sure. Since that mysticism might not be that bad. 

 

[Nahm]

My buddy always talks about how good a pumpkin spice latte at star bucks is compared to a coffee with hazelnut creamer in it from Tim Hortons.  He thinks they are 'all the same'. 

The thing is, he has never tried a pumpkin spice latte from starbucks. He does not realize that I am talking about an experience, and he is talking about a belief. 

Please excuse my forwardness if it is unwelcome as color of PD encouragement that you do not find pleasing -

Bro- you are far to advanced to not have a spent a few years learning quantum mechanics. You are discussing reality without having digested the furthest it has been examined by the greatest mysticists of all time, quantum physicists. It blows my mind to think about the epiphany that waits you, given the effort and focus you have committed to you path, if and when you apply yourself to QM. There is an edge to all of this that no one has progressed beyond in at least 100 years. It is the uncertainty principle. You could be the "Neo". 

[PureExp]

Reality is not only stranger than fiction, it is stranger than whatever science and spiritual people think is the truth.

Somehow mother nature manages to fool us everytime and destroys our hubris that we know everything and can know everything. This happens often, new paradigms replace the old ones. The old doesn't leave without giving a good fight. Since 100 years we are fighting the old.

The next big shift will happen as soon as consciousness is included in sciences as the most fundamental thing to study and experiment on. Currently the whole focus is on tiny ephemeral stuff they call particles that is non-existent, while the elephant in the room is ignored.

Consciousness was the primary subject of study since thousands of years in east, as we know, but unfortunately it became rotten and infected with superstition, magical stuff and just plain worship of entities of personal gains. Science was a breath of fresh air until it hit a wall and went into denialism.

I can see this shift happening now. More and more people realize why it is so important to know what lies at our core, its the only thing there that is worth studying. More people are finding materialism narrow minded. Now, I don't mean we throw the baby with bathwater, physics and all those awesome technologies, colonization of other worlds etc. are important too. It has to be all inclusive, the big picture.

Perhaps you will like to see the work of Bernardo Kastrup, he is one of those open minded fellow, the author of the book - why materialism is baloney.

http://www.bernardokastrup.com/

 

 

[Flare]

12 hours ago, PureExp said:

Reality is not only stranger than fiction, it is stranger than whatever science and spiritual people think is the truth.

First of all I really like you approach and your intention (which im guessing). But I got some logical points against the construct as whole, even though I think in the essence we would agree on the most points.  So lets go: 

How do you know that for sure?

12 hours ago, PureExp said:

The old doesn't leave without giving a good fight. Since 100 years we are fighting the old.

That is a way to narrow kind of thinking. First of all, yes there are some theories about swarm thinking even mathematical ones. They say that the environment is shaping the action of so many animals that people believed they had a consciousness all together. However that is not true, the circumstance are the one's to blame. Your assuming "we" are fighting. There is no we or us, at least none that is fighting anything. Old things are replaced because we're constantly experiencing new black swans, if you wanna use the term by Taleb. (Black Swan = anything that happens we didn't know we didn't see coming)

12 hours ago, PureExp said:

The next big shift will happen as soon as consciousness is included in sciences as the most fundamental thing to study and experiment on. Currently the whole focus is on tiny ephemeral stuff they call particles that is non-existent, while the elephant in the room is ignored. [...]

 [...] I can see this shift happening now. More and more people realize why it is so important to know what lies at our core, its the only thing there that is worth studying. More people are finding materialism narrow minded. Now, I don't mean we throw the baby with bathwater, physics and all those awesome technologies, colonization of other worlds etc. are important too. It has to be all inclusive, the big picture.

How can you say this for sure?

If you don't study history backwards but forward, like people are experiencing it, no one was able to predict the future for sure. Your doing to the future what, most of us did to history. We rationalize it, like we rationalize our own behavior. (Erich Fromm) So sadly Marx and Hegel were wrong, even though the concepts are great and you can definitely learn from them. But again history is not (!) a narrow road. Or maybe it is, but to prove that you would need every information that exists. Hegel got a glimpse of that epiphany. 

If i gave 100 people 50k informations and told them to predict the future, they might feel overwhelmed. If I told them afterwards that 4 information where important to an certain event, they will think that they would have been able to predict it. Which in case they were not, obv. 

Theories are about consciousness wider than the personal experience are just fragile. You need to find one thing and the whole theory just implodes. Yes you may be able to build some kind of fractal structure out of personal/psychological knowledge but that is nearly impossible. Most likely you're just going to fall for the Gauß-Trap again. In which your 5% significant is still enough to blow your whole construct, if ever proven right. The next big shift will happen, when it will happen. We got absolutely no evidence about the future. 

Sorry if might been a little bit harsh here. But the problem is precisely that were trying to construct consciousness, press it into theories, see an awakening in the masses etc. We are destroying it completely, it is nothing you should intellectualize, it is something you should experience. That's where the magic lies. Trying to describe consciousness with words is like trying to see your own eyes, you won't be able to. Or as Zizek once put it:

"For Lacan, language is a gift as dangerous to humanity as the horse was to the Trojans: it offers itself to our use free of charge, but once we accept it, it colonizes us." (I think you can find a similar Alan Watts Quote) Don't limit consciousness by trying to put in any definition. If the real awakening is happening, they will be no one anymore to talk about. Or as it is written in the Zhuangzi: "Show me the man who has forgotten words, so I might talk with him."

The word awakening is one of the things keeping "us" away from awakening. Mood used to say this: "The world is full of buddhas but they're sleeping."

@Nahm Haha new Neo, that would be it! I totally get what you meant with your analogy. You get a pn, I think were really drifting away from the actual topic.  

Greetings 

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Flare

[Nahm]

@PureExp Materialism and determinism were surpassed by quantum mechanics in the 1800's. There are many scientists and physicists currently pursuing what you are referring to as a potential future. Many are doing research with consciousness at the center. Boicentrism comes to mind. Also John Haglin is leading a subcategory of consciousness first research. He even ran for president I think. There are also scientists who work in the CERN LHC who are trying to prove their theories based on consciousness first. So the great news is, you're totally right and your wish is coming true. Uncertainty principle, quantum erasure or the Mandela effect? You decide. (Pun intended)

Edited February 28, 2017 by Nahm

[Nahm]

@Flare Check those animals again. They have more consciousness than I do. They are in complete and utter resonance without a single thought to the contrary. 

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[PureExp]

11 hours ago, Flare said:

How do you know that for sure?

I guess you already know that future can only be predicted as an extrapolation of past data, it cannot be known (at least not by us ordinary folk). Being sure and certain is not the point here, predicting what might happen is.

Where did I get my past data from? Same place where everyone gets it - history. Reality has always been shown to be totally different than the existing paradigms. This is how progress looks like. Will it happen again? You can predict that reasonably. How can this happen? I propose that smart will people dig into previously unknown and unresearched areas. Consciousness is one such area. Whenever people do that breakthroughs happen.

My thinking is simple and straightforward Perhaps its too simplistic from your point of view so I'm sorry, that's all I could think.

The rest of stuff about definitions is fine, I was not talking about that.