Women confuse self-hatred with gender dysphoria?

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

If social contagion supposedly only affects young teenage girls, then why can it not also be the same for acceptance for coming out?

Child history of dysphoria assumes that they're willing to come out in the first place. The level of acceptance is still a factor, unless they're so young that they're unable to understand social roles or feel social pressures.

It could be social acceptance, but I intuit that to be not the case. I don't see why acceptance in particular would only apply to females, but I can think of reasons for why females might fall for these kinds of ideologies. We know suicide rates for young teenage girls has skyrocketed since the advent of social media, and it seems that there is a particular effect it has on them. We are also creating a kind shadow out of femininity culturally speaking, and the arguments provided by the woman in the video seem valid to me, with the psychology of teenage girls working different from boys (with the cutting aspect for example). Women already feel disadvantaged in society due to them being women, and we are continually spreading the message that to be a woman means to be fundamentally oppressed, and to be a man is to be fundamentally privileged and oppressive.

 

And when we are talking about child history of dysphoria, I am assuming they mean that the teenagers themselves, who want to transition, do not report any child history of dysphoria, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to assert that there is no child history of dysphoria.

 

I think MrGirl is almost spot on as far as this question goes, and people who are in denial about this seem to be borderline delusional to me. Certainly we cannot justify the confidence with which current claims about the underlying reality of this phenomena are made, yet when that confidence is questioned, you are automatically viewed as bigoted and transphobic. That alone should be a huge red flag.

 

If I use my empathy, and I try to put myself in the position of a young teenage girl, I can see why I would want to change my gender. Let's say I am not on the level of attractivness as other women are, and with social media, I am constantly confronted about this. I already hate my body because I am going through puberty, society is telling me that women are oppressed, and not only that, the culture I live in communicates to me that being cys is being boring. I can see my friends on social media making fun of cys people, and trying to differentiate themselves from the white "normies", which is basically considered the bigotted oppressor class. So, I am depressed, I probably hate my body, I hate my role in society because everyone talks about victimhood, and I now have the opportunity to jump on the bandwagon and become special just by claiming that I am non-binary, or whatever else. Once I am, I not only have found an explanation for why I feel like I do not fit into society, I now am part of another group which will respect my identity as it is fundamentally protected within that culture.

In fact, I would be very surprised, with my knowledge of how teenagers work, if it was not that case that a significant portion would be doing the gender thing in the same exact manner as people did with the emo, goth and so forth movements when we were young. That's just what teenagers do, especially the ones who are outcasts in society. The fact that the advocacy is moving towards self-ID just further indicates to me that this is not really grounded in the phenomena of gender dysphoria. Combine this with the fact that people can create their own echo chambers today, and can receive significant social validation for what they do, and you basically harm individuals because, something which should have been just an exploration of identity, suddenly becomes a dysfunction they carry into their adulthood. Remember, we didn't have that as children, because we didn't have social media. When we were being stupid teenagers, we didn't get world-wide validation from it, we didn't get to feel incredibly special, with people incentivized to signal to us their support and love for our delusions.

As a teenager I had a phase where I bought into conspiracy theories, imagine if I had social media back then, with an endless ocean of people trying to validate what I am saying. Rather than a phase, it could have become a permanent part of my identity, that's the danger of social media.

 

The issue I have is that, teenagers, and young adults, have all sorts of reasons for adopting certain identities, but the only reason that you are allowed to consider is whatever falls in line with the cultural dogma. You can't doubt their motivations, as if teenagers and children we wise. Teenagers and children are extremely impressionable, they are very susceptible to these kinds of cultural movements. But of course, if you lack genuine empathy for individuals, you don't care what will happen to them. It's far more comfortable to go along with the cultural dogma, and not to question it at all.

 

In my eyes, most of what is happening within this sphere is extremely toxic, it's precisely the opposite of growth. It's so sad because, we realized that identities are constructed, and instead of realizing that we ought not to be so attached to them, we instead did the precise opposite. We created new categories, new identities, and we are more attached to them than we have ever been before. There is so much self delusion too, people genuinely think they are gaining happiness from constructing these identities. But we all know that once you threaten them, they will flail around in fear, because of how attached and needy their are towards that contracted identity. They are like hyper-masochistic guys, all you need to do to threaten their entire existence is to question their identity. This of course will lead to suffering, and that suffering eventually will lead to wisdom. But it will be easier for those individuals if they have people who can lead them towards the next steps, because with no alternative, wisdom is not guaranteed.

[Carl-Richard]

24 minutes ago, Scholar said:

It could be social acceptance, but I intuit that to be not the case. I don't see why acceptance in particular would only apply to females, but I can think of reasons for why females might fall for these kinds of ideologies.

In the video, social contagion in young females was explained by being strongly impacted by social validation from peers. Social acceptance would be social validation from the larger society. I think those would be correlated in some way.

[Scholar]

22 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

In the video, social contagion in young females was explained by being strongly impacted by social validation from peers. Social acceptance would be social validation from the larger society. I think those would be correlated in some way.

I'm not even sure what point you are making, in the end you have to give some sort of reason that has explanatory power for why there is this difference in men vs women. A hypothesis which can provide an explanation for that should be rationally preferable, no?

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Scholar said:

I'm not even sure what point you are making, in the end you have to give some sort of reason that has explanatory power for why there is this difference in men vs women. A hypothesis which can provide an explanation for that should be rationally preferable, no?

I'm saying the hypothesis for why social contagion is a young female thing indicates that being affected by social acceptance could also be a young female thing.

[Heart of Space]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

If I use my empathy, and I try to put myself in the position of a young teenage girl, I can see why I would want to change my gender. Let's say I am not on the level of attractivness as other women are, and with social media, I am constantly confronted about this. I already hate my body because I am going through puberty, society is telling me that women are oppressed, and not only that, the culture I live in communicates to me that being cys is being boring. I can see my friends on social media making fun of cys people, and trying to differentiate themselves from the white "normies", which is basically considered the bigotted oppressor class. So, I am depressed, I probably hate my body, I hate my role in society because everyone talks about victimhood, and I now have the opportunity to jump on the bandwagon and become special just by claiming that I am non-binary, or whatever else. Once I am, I not only have found an explanation for why I feel like I do not fit into society, I now am part of another group which will respect my identity as it is fundamentally protected within that culture.

This is exactly your problem.  You completely misunderstand the problem on a fundamental level.  There is an experience of having masculine feelings or feminine feelings while being of either 'XX' or 'XY' chromosomes.  Sometimes you have a penis, but feel female and this is not a matter of self-hatred.  I'm reading your post and I don't think you are fully comprehending the nature of human biology and how gender expression is absolutely an innate part of your functioning sexuality.  

Obviously feelings of self-hatred are societal as are the modern medical solutions of surgery and hormones, but the feelings of being 'girl-like' in a male body or 'boy-like' in a female body are innate and not a result of self-hatred.  There are deeply spiritual people with biologically male bodies who are very feminine and essentially the essence of what in means to be female.  

Your position is basically a mild evolution of the whole 'being gay is a choice' meme.  Which stems from ideology that desires to justify prejudice towards gay people.  This topic seems to be a little outside of your scope of understanding.  Reading your description of the trans experience in society like watching a clumsy elephant do ballet.  In your posts you occasionally say something correct, but your viewpoint is very messy, bumbling, and doesn't quite have the whole picture.  

Edited July 25, 2022 by Heart of Space

[Scholar]

2 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

This is exactly your problem.  You completely misunderstand the problem on a fundamental level.  There is an experience of having masculine feelings or feminine feelings while being of either 'XX' or 'XY' chromosomes.  Sometimes you have a penis, but feel female and this is not a matter of self-hatred.  I'm reading your post and I don't think you are fully comprehending the nature of human biology and how gender expression is absolutely an innate part of your functioning sexuality.  

Obviously feelings of self-hatred are societal as are the modern medical solutions of surgery and hormones, but the feelings of being 'girl-like' in a male body or 'boy-like' in a female body are innate and not a result of self-hatred.  There are deeply spiritual people with biologically male bodies who are very feminine and essentially the essence of what in means to be female.  

Your position is basically a mild evolution of the whole 'being gay is a choice' meme.  Which stems from ideology that desires to justify prejudice towards gay people.  This topic seems to be a little outside of your scope of understanding.  Reading your description of the trans experience in society like watching a clumsy elephant do ballet.  In your posts you occasionally say something correct, but your viewpoint is very messy, bumbling, and doesn't quite have the whole picture.  

I never described the trans experience in my post, and your interpretation of my position is incorrect. I have no interest in conversing with you if you continue being bad faith.

[Heart of Space]

18 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I never described the trans experience in my post, and your interpretation of my position is incorrect. I have no interest in conversing with you if you continue being bad faith.

You literally discussed yourself as trying to understand the the experience of a young presumably lgbt person's experience and then proceeded to explain the social psychological experience of a lgbt person.

There was no bad faith what so ever.  I just was pointing out a fundamental flaw in your understanding.  

Edited July 25, 2022 by Heart of Space

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Heart of Space said:

You literally discussed yourself as trying to understand the trans experience and then proceeded to explain the social psychological experience of a trans person.

There was no bad faith what so ever.  I just was pointing out a fundamental flaw in your understanding.  

No I did not, I described the experience of young women who might be confused about whether or not they have gender dysphoria, or be pushed towards certain identities as a result of their suffering. Look, if you want to point out a flaw in my understanding that's fine, but at least first understand my understanding, because otherwise you are just talking to an imaginary friend.

If you want to show to me that you understand my position, try to summarize and explain it to me in your own words. Tell me what you think I think, and I will point out anything you might have misinterpreted.

[Heart of Space]

23 minutes ago, Scholar said:

No I did not, I described the experience of young women who might be confused about whether or not they have gender dysphoria, or be pushed towards certain identities as a result of their suffering.

Yea, that's literally what I was addressing.  Your imagination ran wild without having any real connection to the experience of the reality of a young person who is having gender identity issues.  Yet you went on and on trying to understand and explain the experience.  

Edited July 25, 2022 by Heart of Space

[Scholar]

4 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Yea, that's literally what I was addressing.  Your imagination ran wild without having any real connection to the experience of the reality of a young person who is having gender identity issues.  Yet you went on and on trying to understand and explain the experience.  

You assume that everyone who has gender identity issues has the same experience, which is already fundamentally flawed. Either way, try to do a good faith job at summarizing my position, and the reasoning that has lead to it.

 

And by the way I know people who have had pretty much the experience I described, you can probably find such reports on youtube as well.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Scholar

[Heart of Space]

11 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You assume that everyone who has gender identity issues has the same experience, which is already fundamentally flawed. Either way, try to do a good faith job at summarizing my position, and the reasoning that has lead to it.

 

And by the way I know people who have had pretty much the experience I described, you can probably find such reports on youtube as well.

You know man, I may or may not have what's called 'first hand experience' with said gay, gender-identity, or trans feelings?  I've probably interacted with more gay people, seen more gay content than you have?  Your personal judgement based on what a gay person youtube has said, doesn't really mean anything.  

And yes, your characterization of that experience has a lot of falsehood in it.  And you fail to see the prejudicial nature of what you're saying because you simply lack the consciousness, intelligence, experience, and wisdom to see the subject clearly.  

Maybe move on to critiquing other minorities on their supposed psycho-social issues?  Your opinion will probably be just as bumbling and undesired there as well.  But please, carry on.  

Edited July 25, 2022 by Heart of Space

[Scholar]

5 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

You know man, I may or may not have what's called 'first hand experience' with said gay, gender-identity, or trans feelings?  I've probably interacted with more gay people, seen more gay content than you have?  Your personal judgement based on what a gay person youtube has said, doesn't really mean anything.  

And yes, your characterization of that experience has a lot of falsehood in it.  And you fail to see the prejudicial nature of what you're saying because you simply lack the consciousness, intelligence, experience, and wisdom to see the subject clearly.  

Maybe move on to critiquing other minorities on their supposed psycho-social issues?  Your opinion will probably be just as bumbling and undesired there as well.  But please, carry on.  

What? So you will invalidate anyone's opinion as long as they don't correlate to yours or the people you deem to be authentic? You are clearly dogmatic about this. You are just ad-homineming me. Telling me that I am stupid doesn't really point out to me where I am wrong, and you still haven't even bothered to try to assess if your own interpretation of my position is correct.

 

I think your attitude is part of the problem, you are unwilling to engage with me, and all you can do is call me bigotted and stupid. It's so clear that you have attachment issues here, not me. You are defending your identity, otherwise you wouldn't feel the need to be this cruel and dismissive.

[Heart of Space]

6 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I think your attitude is part of the problem, you are unwilling to engage with me, and all you can do is call me bigotted and stupid. It's so clear that you have attachment issues here, not me. You are defending your identity, otherwise you wouldn't feel the need to be this cruel and dismissive.

Except you were the one who disregarded my opinion on the basis that it was bad faith.  That's where the conversation stopped and derailed.  You never addressed my initial points.

And then you just continued to whine, which what this post is.  You just turned into a petulant child. 

You're probably still a bit young and immature.  I would just implore you to have an open mind in the future on this subject.  

Edited July 25, 2022 by Heart of Space

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Except you were the one who disregarded my opinion on the basis that it was bad faith.  That's where the conversation stopped and derailed.  You never addressed my initial points.

And then you just continued to whine, which what this post is.  You just turned into a petulant child. 

You're probably still a bit young and immature.  I would just implore you to have an open mind in the future on this subject.  

Sadly we are unable to have a civilized conversation, I wish you all the love anyways!

[Heart of Space]

35 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Sadly we are unable to have a civilized conversation, I wish you all the love anyways!

My initial response was well intentioned.  Your interpretation of bad faith is a pure construction of your imagination.

[Scholar]

18 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

My initial response was well intentioned.  Your interpretation of bad faith is a pure construction of your imagination.

Indeed, but I simply lack the consciousness, intelligence, experience, and wisdom to see this.

[Carl-Richard]

7 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Indeed, but I simply lack the consciousness, intelligence, experience, and wisdom to see this.

No you don't. Don't say that.

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

No you don't. Don't say that.

Don't tell me what to do, devil!

[Heart of Space]

16 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Indeed, but I simply lack the consciousness, intelligence, experience, and wisdom to see this.

To understand the topic of this thread, that seems to certainly be the case.  

[thepixelmonk]

13 hours ago, DrugsBunny said:

When spirituality meets transphobia. 

Seriously people, stop responding to this as if this self-appointed internet scholar is actually presenting a critical subject matter and isn't just a simpering transphobe. My dude actually named himself @Scholar and cited a Jordan Peterson video. It's hard to conjure a more pretentious commitment to the phony aesthetic of intellectualism.

Just cringe and ignore the poor troll. He is insecure and projecting his own self-hatred onto people suffering from the very real affliction of gender dysphoria.

lmao this is spot on. it's good that people like @Heart of Space have so much patience but this, uh... "scholar" is not worth anyone's time. Just take a moment, cringe at his blatant insecure projections, and move onto the next thread.

Edited July 26, 2022 by thepixelmonk