Is math discovered or developed?

[Topspin715]

Is it constructed to describe absolute truth or is there absolute truth in math?  Are these maybe even the wrong questions?

[gettoefl]

math is language to describe what is; its genius is it makes something complicated explicable in one page; its elegance and simplicity makes further discoveries obvious and straightforward

it doesn't do any more than tell you what's there; it hasn't inherent truth but is a good tool for uncovering such

[King Merk]

Both  

[Topspin715]

If math is discovered, at least in part, what is being discovered?

[gettoefl]

14 hours ago, Topspin715 said:

If math is discovered, at least in part, what is being discovered?

math finds whatever works

so we find something true in the physical world; math deduces what else must be true based on that; so we are unravelling our universe; our eyes and scientific instruments are too paltry to see the majesty of how the universe is but math sees clearly how it ticks

[Salvijus]

Is logic discovered or invented? I would argue that logicality of existence is discovered. And so is mathematics because mathematics is just an expression of logicality of existence.

Existence follows certain laws. Everything that fits into these laws we call logical, everything that doesn't fit into the natural laws we call "doesn't make sense" 

So mathematics is basicly the science of logic. The science of making sense about existence. So it is discovered. Only the symbols and the language of mathematics are invented. But what that language discribes is not invented, it exists.

We express the logicality of existence and its laws through the language we call "mathematics". Therefor mathematics is a way of describing existence not inventing things that are not there.

That would be my perspective for now. Interesting question really.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Salvijus

[Ulax]

Developed.

There is no absolute justification for why 2+2 = 4

[Salvijus]

I think the real question is: is logic invented or discovered? If logic exist in the universe then so does mathematics because they are the same thing really.

But somehow existence is both logical and illogical at the same time. That becomes confusing. But since logic is part or existence. So math would be also part of it, not something invented.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Salvijus

[Leo Gura]

Math is no truer than a dog turd laying on the grass.

[UnbornTao]

Without humans to perceive and interpret, is there math?

I'd say invented is the word, instead of developed.

Edited July 23, 2022 by UnbornTao

[Salvijus]

53 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Without humans to perceive and interpret, is there math?

That's not really a good argument that proves that mathematics is invented imo. Because try to apply the same argument on physics. Is physics invented or discovered? It's definitely not a human invention but a keen obervation of the laws of physicality. So it is discovered. And yet if we apply the same question (Is there physics without any human interpretation) the answer will be no. But that's obviously not true. So there's a flaw in the argument then i would say.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Salvijus

[Vibroverse]

7 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

That's not really a good argument that proves that mathematics is invented imo. Because try to apply the same argument on physics. Is physics invented or discovered? It's definitely not a human invention but a keen obervation of the laws of physicality. So it is discovered. And yet if we apply the same question (Is there physics without any human interpretation) the answer will be no. But that's obviously not true. So there's a flaw in the argument then i would say.

Are the laws of physics and existence invented or discovered, or maybe invented and discovered are actually the same thing, depending on the context?

[Salvijus]

13 minutes ago, Vibroverse said:

Are the laws of physics and existence invented or discovered

Discovered no? Sombody observed reality and find out how it functions so it's discovered. 

 

13 minutes ago, Vibroverse said:

maybe invented and discovered are actually the same thing, depending on the context?

Yea context is everything i think. In nondual samadhi there're no concepts and no such things as math and physics. But that's irrelevent for this topic now imo.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Salvijus

[UnbornTao]

9 hours ago, Salvijus said:

That's not really a good argument that proves that mathematics is invented imo. Because try to apply the same argument on physics. Is physics invented or discovered? It's definitely not a human invention but a keen obervation of the laws of physicality. So it is discovered. And yet if we apply the same question (Is there physics without any human interpretation) the answer will be no. But that's obviously not true. So there's a flaw in the argument then i would say.

The argument is ontological. What does it mean for a thing to exist?

A chair isn't a chair, it just is. Humans create chair.

It's a human activity, fundamentally. 

Do the trees exist with no one to perceive them? 

I guess it'd be better to turn the thread into a contemplation of discovery and invention, what those are. It seems that, absolutely speaking, everything comes from nothing. So in that sense everything is "invented."

Both, maybe?

Fun topic.

Edited July 24, 2022 by UnbornTao

[Salvijus]

@UnbornTao yea, it would be very complicated if we started to be ontological. Because from absolute level nothing exists, nothing ever happens, there's no such thing as discoveries and inventions. Without interpretion of reality there's just nondual eternal samadhi. But that's not very helpful for this topic right now imo ?

i'd rather stay on a relative human level now and would define "discovered" as that which was found by observation. And "invention" that which doesn't exist, like a pure fanatsy, scy fy movie.

For example physics is not an invention because if it were i could just invent new laws every day. What about math then? Can i invent new math every day? I don't think so. I think it's existencial. Here's why i think so.

Someone who understands mathematics in a human world would understand alien mathematics just the same way except that they would be using different symbols. But the fact that u'd be able to understand it means it's not just human invention. It's something universal. Because all alien civilizations would arrive at exacly the same equations imo.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Salvijus

[UnbornTao]

On 7/22/2022 at 4:17 PM, Topspin715 said:

Is it constructed to describe absolute truth or is there absolute truth in math?  Are these maybe even the wrong questions?

I don't think so, not absolute truth. The absolute would be the domain of "enlightenment." Facts, yes.

Probably math along with physics are the most grounded domains of human scientific knowledge.

[UnbornTao]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

@UnbornTao 

i'd rather stay on a relative human level now and would define "discovered" as that which was found by observation. And "invention" that which doesn't exist, like a pure fanatsy, scy fy movie.

For example physics is not an invention because if it were i could just invent new laws every day. 

What about math then? Can i invent new math every day? I don't think so. I think it's existencial. Here's my argument why.

I think every alien civilization that has math would arrive at exacly the same equations except that they would use different symbols only. Like instead of 1+1=2, they would use i+i=ii or smth.

What that says to me, is that they all are describing something existencially true. Not a random invention that u can create a new one every day. Nobody can create a new math. Or my own personal mathematics. There's only one universal mathematics. And all civilizations would arrive at the same equations to describe reality.

How's that? It makes sense to me. Idk if it's right tho.

I automatically relate to "discovery" as an invention, don't know what's up with that.

Was America discovered, or was it created?

Depending on viewpoint, both are the case. An explorer discovered it. On the other hand, that land was created throughout millennia by natural processes.

It's fair to consider math a discovery, relatively speaking, but not as existential, I'd say. 

Find me some math. Where is it?

Edited July 23, 2022 by UnbornTao

[Salvijus]

@UnbornTao yea it's debateble, im not sure myself what would be the final correct answer. And it hurts my brains now 

Reality be like.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Salvijus

[Topspin715]

2 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

I automatically relate to "discovery" as an invention, don't know what's up with that.

Was America discovered, or was it created?

Depending on viewpoint, both are the case. An explorer discovered it. On the other hand, that land was created throughout millennia by natural processes.

It's fair to consider math a discovery, relatively speaking, but not as existential, I'd say. 

Find me some math. Where is it?

You could say the land of America was discovered by the Vikings and Columbus bc it was already there and they just found it and figured out what it was they found.

the land itself was created by various physical forces that similarly created the entire Earth.  so there are some things that can be both discovered and created.

Accounting is a branch of math that I would say was definitely developed for human use.  But is there any element of math that exists independent of human experience?  the number pi was discovered I would argue and the fundamentals of geometry.  Number systems were developed for human use but numerical properties would exist in any possible universe or alien civilization I would think

Where do geometry and numerical identities and pi and the Fibonacci sequence come from?  I couldn't even alter the universe in such a way that I would change those but I could imagine a universe where the laws of physics were totally different

Leo says math is as real as a dog turd but is a dog turd not real? 

[UnbornTao]

@Topspin715 we start from the assumption that there's an external, objective world independent of you. The corollary to that is that you are separate from that world.

So we say: if humans were extinct, math would still be "out there." Would it, though?

Weren't numbers themselves had to be invented at some point in human history? Isn't symbolism a kind of language? Language isn't found in nature. Rocks and trees don't care.

The mere activities of perceiving and experiencing have to be present in order for math to be possible to come into existence.

Where does math happen?

Only through the human mind.

Who chooses to put artificial boundaries on a supposed "object" and decides to add it to another object, making "two"? That in itself is an activity. Without the activity, the objects are just what they are.

Reality is, math happens within it.

Edited July 24, 2022 by UnbornTao