Death is akin to a DMT trip

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

@Leo Gura based on your responses awakening= the concept of death. When someone quote on quote dies they are really just awakening.

No

[AtheisticNonduality]

Quite probably the most exasperating thing about awakened (or previously awakened) people is the possibility that they literally deny the existence of space and time, even though they are physically made out of space and time (moving colors as the form of the body and moving sounds the voice physically based "out there" and mental objects too that have spatial and temporal traits like thoughts, LIKE A THOUGHT COULD BE IN EXISTENCE, COULD EXIST IN BEING).

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

No .he clearly said that death doesn't even happen. Not sure myself how to interpret that or make sense of it .

It's futile to interpret or make sense of that while you're living a human life under a human paradigm and state of consciousness.

If/when Understanding and Consciousness expands beyond yourself, you'll see how your entire life - literally everything including your own mom, all of physical reality, personal history, future goals, hunger, knowledge, etc. etc. etc. EVERYTHING in a sense "flattens" into a one-dimensional plane that can be viewed from "above," so to speak, until it vanishes entirely in front of your very eyes (so to speak) whilst your lucidity is cranked to a million%. And yet, existence persists, obviously. This is a taste of what it means to say that there literally is no real physical death. How could there be a "real physical death" when literally all of your known life is a nonexistent charade to begin with?

And I'm not even describing God-Realization a la Leo. What I'm saying here is far more amateur - it's not even close.

When the time comes for you to transcend beyond yourself (likely psychedelics), recall these kind of conversations. It'll deepen your wisdom and show you DIRECTLY how there is no death. However, while you're prancing around life as a human thinking that anything around you is somehow "real," it's truly futile to rack your head over "there is no death." You'd already be enlightened if you could access immortality on a whim 

[RendHeaven]

Just now, AtheisticNonduality said:

Quite probably the most exasperating thing about awakened (or previously awakened) people is the possibility that they literally deny the existence of space and time, even though they are physically made out of space and time (moving colors as the form of the body and moving sounds the voice physically based "out there" and mental objects too that have spatial and temporal traits like thoughts, LIKE A THOUGHT COULD BE IN EXISTENCE, COULD EXIST IN BEING).

Nobody denies the observed properties (symptoms) of a so-called "space" and "time," rather we deny the insistence that this rigid sense-making construct called "space" and "time" somehow maintains an independent first-order being outside of consciousness.

[AtheisticNonduality]

Just now, RendHeaven said:

Nobody denies the observed properties (symptoms) of a so-called "space" and "time," rather we deny the insistence that this rigid sense-making construct called "space" and "time" somehow maintains an independent first-order being outside of consciousness.

So this is not a nonexistence or denial of spatiotemporality; it's just a recontextualization of it. However, Leo has explicitly stated that part of awakening is that space does not exist, so either Leo is wrong due to illogically misinterpreting his own awakenings because he is a fallible human entity or there is a terminological issue. Of course nothing exists outside of the Awareness, making mainstream materialism incorrect, but space still exists in our perception across a line of time; and this is our perception AS A REALITY and not an illusion, because the existences of illusions are illusions and absolutely incapable of existing.

[Razard86]

12 minutes ago, Someone here said:

So I'm not concerned about what Leo said because that's his own direct experience. It contradicts mine . Death of the body is a biological fact .I don't understand how "its never going to happen ". 

I am proud of you, welcome to Spirituality. I am proud to welcome you in. Only trust your direct experience. Now let's see if you can take the next step which is the step of curiosity. While trusting only your direct experience....are you open to testing what Leo is saying and discovering whether it is true for you? Because you cannot awaken conceptually.

Concept is only important for 2 things. Integration, and grounding you when reality....stops making sense. A  Spiritual seeker with proper conceptual knowledge has a better chance of not falling into derealization/psychosis and if they do have a better chance of recovery. But without the conceptual knowledge is akin to jumping into a bottomless pit with no map to make sense of anything.

[RendHeaven]

25 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

However, Leo has explicitly stated that part of awakening is that space does not exist

Time for some good ol' intellectual circle jerking 

---

If we admit that Consciousness contains space and not the other way around

- this means that Consciousness is the WHOLE and space is the PART.

Since the (magnitude of the) whole is greater > than the part

- this necessarily means that there are aspects of Consciousness which exclude space.

If Consciousness = Existence

- we must admit that there exists aspects of Existence in which there is (literally) no space.

If that is the case, whatever "reality" or "being" we've ascribed to "space" is now seen as contingent and partial.

We realize we are unable to declare Absolute being to space. It becomes untenable to say that space is.

However, we can still say that space is not. Why?

Because "space," from its very conception, is a fabrication of Consciousness. It was never a first-order being.

In the eyes of the Absolute, "space" is the phantom offspring of the only thing that is. i.e. it's not.

Really, it only makes sense to say that some-thing exists while Consciousness is in a straightjacket of relativity and obscurity.

It may sound like Leo or I am privileging Absolute cognition over relative cognition in a biased way - perhaps.

But just remember that the Absolute is Eternal and Omnipresent; the relative is not

Edited July 19, 2022 by RendHeaven

[AtheisticNonduality]

3 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

But just remember that the Absolute is Eternal and Omnipresent; the relative is not

Absoluteness and Eternity and Omnipresence = relative entities and spatial or conceptually comparative reality. There is no boundary between them, meaning the reality of the relative side cannot be denied.

Therefore space exists.

Therefore space denialism is debunked.

[RendHeaven]

6 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Absoluteness and Eternity and Omnipresence = relative entities and spatial or conceptually comparative reality.

[...]

Therefore space denialism is debunked.

You triumphantly declare this from within your vantage point of relativity.

Your statement doesn't fly from the throne of Absolute cognition.

Oneness is not merely a bunch of relative things glued together. Grasping the WHOLE of Existence at once literally VAPORIZES relativity.

If you actually want Eternity and Omnipresence, you have to cut your umbilical cord to relativity. Which is why no human you know is actually Eternal or Omnipresent, including the most advanced spiritual gurus.

Edited July 19, 2022 by RendHeaven

[AtheisticNonduality]

@Leo Gura Is not @RendHeaven establishing a false dichotomy between Absolute and relative which can never truly exist?

If it's meant that "the relative world" is just a mental construction, that is subject to being destroyed. If you we mean the actual forms themselves, it can hold destructions within it (creations and destructions being the parts of the whole relative set of forms), but it itself cannot be destroyed. The only way for it to not exist is simply to not exist, and ultimate nonexistence actually holds no contact with creation or destruction.

But even the mental construction is One with the Absolute. This is what I mean by the existence of the illusion being just another illusion.

[RendHeaven]

2 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

But even the mental construction is One with the Absolute.

Yes, obviously. But not in the way that you are arguing for it.

You are placing a blinding emphasis on partial things appearing real, and using the rhetoric of "its all one" to anchor your sense of sanity.

When you actually have Absolute cognition, you wouldn't be asking the questions you're asking right now, nor would you scramble to salvage relativity.

[thisintegrated]

omg why you guys overcomplicating this so much.

 

Space and time are products of consciousness.  No consciousness = no space and time.

Don't they teach this stuff in school?!

Edited July 19, 2022 by thisintegrated

[AtheisticNonduality]

@thisintegrated Because Leo likes to spread hogwash like "death is imaginary" or "you were never born" even though time literally exists, and he claims space does not exist, when it does, therefore the arguments have to be sufficiently intellectually rigorous and philosophically technical, which is a major blindspot Leo has.

[Razard86]

18 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

@thisintegrated Because Leo likes to spread hogwash like "death is imaginary" or "you were never born" even though time literally exists, and he claims space does not exist, when it does, therefore the arguments have to be sufficiently intellectually rigorous and philosophically technical, which is a major blindspot Leo has.

You actually believe time exists?......sigh....

https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/einstein/time/a-matter-of-time

But we don't even need that....time is just a measurement, all measurements are imaginary.

People like us who believe in physics know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. - Albert Einstein.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Razard86

[Razard86]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No

@Leo GuraSo what are you saying Leo? I watched your video on Death before. Should I watch it again? I'm definitely confused on this one what you are communicating. Mind explaining?

I'll give an example. Obviously I know I can't die because I'm not the body. But let's just say for example's sake I'm in a terrible accident and I'm beheaded. In my experience... after my recent car accident when my attachment was loosened I could feel I was not my body. So I would assume in this example my body would fall and I would just be observing it as if a spoon falling from a table top. 

Or am I missing something? What are you saying would happen?

[AtheisticNonduality]

11 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

You actually believe time exists?......sigh....

https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/einstein/time/a-matter-of-time

But we don't even need that....time is just a measurement, all measurements are imaginary.

People like us who believe in physics know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. - Albert Einstein.

Lol, is the argument that time has to be illusion because Einstein said so and Einstein has a reputation for being genius? Geniuses can still make mistakes (think Van Gogh's self-mutilation, and compare that with the Einstein quote). The basic point behind relativity is that different objects or spaces move at different speeds, and so the slowness/quickness of some object or area of spacetime will be conceived or defined by the velocity of some other place, this being the simple principle a lot of people learn from it. But all of this is still happening using time, even if different times seem to become enmeshed with theoretically a thousand years passing in one place and one second in another. Time has to exist.

 

[thisintegrated]

35 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Lol, is the argument that time has to be illusion because Einstein said so and Einstein has a reputation for being genius? Geniuses can still make mistakes (think Van Gogh's self-mutilation, and compare that with the Einstein quote). The basic point behind relativity is that different objects or spaces move at different speeds, and so the slowness/quickness of some object or area of spacetime will be conceived or defined by the velocity of some other place, this being the simple principle a lot of people learn from it. But all of this is still happening using time, even if different times seem to become enmeshed with theoretically a thousand years passing in one place and one second in another. Time has to exist.

You're getting confused.

Time doesn't have to exist.  It only has to exist in theory.

It's like everything else.  Your brain doesn't visually exist unless you open up your skull, but it does exist in the form of the weight you feel, and the consequences of having a brain.  You receive data upon request.  Time is no exception.  By living as a human, you're requesting updates for the life of the human every x number of nanoseconds, or whatever resolution you require.  It's basic quantum mechanics.   

Edited July 20, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Razard86]

47 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Lol, is the argument that time has to be illusion because Einstein said so and Einstein has a reputation for being genius? Geniuses can still make mistakes (think Van Gogh's self-mutilation, and compare that with the Einstein quote). The basic point behind relativity is that different objects or spaces move at different speeds, and so the slowness/quickness of some object or area of spacetime will be conceived or defined by the velocity of some other place, this being the simple principle a lot of people learn from it. But all of this is still happening using time, even if different times seem to become enmeshed with theoretically a thousand years passing in one place and one second in another. Time has to exist.

 

Saying time exists is like saying a foot exists. A foot is a concept, time is a concept. I can put a drug in your system....and you would lose your sense of time. Your sense of time is just the synchronization of life you feel. Time is just measurement of change. If you are in a dark room and you lose your other senses like touch, smell, taste, you wouldn't have time. For time to exist it would have to be something tangible outside of your senses. But if you have sensory deprivation then there would be no time in your reality...which proves the point...time isn't real. 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Razard86

[AtheisticNonduality]

16 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Time doesn't have to exist.  It only has to exist in theory.

No.

Quote

It's like everything else.  Your brain doesn't visually exist unless you open up your skull, but it does exist in the form of the weight you feel, and the consequences of having a brain.  You receive data upon request.  Time is no exception.  By living as a human, you're requesting updates for the life of the human every x number of nanoseconds, or whatever resolution you require. 

Okay, this proves the existence of time as a system of "updates" for an observer.

17 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

It's basic quantum mechanics.   

Ew.

[AtheisticNonduality]

Just now, Razard86 said:

Saying time exists is like saying a foot exists. A foot is a concept, time is a concept. I can put a drug in your system....and you would lose your sense of time. Your sense of time is just the synchronization of life you feel. Time is just measurement of change. If you are in a dark room and you lose your other senses like touch, smell, taste, you wouldn't have time. For time to exist it would have to be something tangible outside of your senses. Gravity is more reliable than time. You can jump and feel gravity push you down, but if you have sensory deprivation then there would be no time in your reality...which proves the point...time isn't real. 

Part of my point, though, is that the senses are also real. The senses are what make up space, your perception of it, and their existence of movement gives the time aspect. Sense of gravity could also be interrupted with by sensory deprivation, if you turned off part of the mind/brain to get rid of spatial/perceptual orientation so there's no way to tell where your weight is being pushed by gravity to. That doesn't make gravity any less real, since it is an experience in reality that exists through space and time. And even if the senses are interfered with in some way and are in an altered or sensorily deprived state, they have to have some means of logical objectivity for us to remember them from that state, which means we have to be able to configure them in our spatial-temporal reality.